Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:06:31 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Michael TraversTo: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of the phrase Virtual Community X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <782717502990.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.012 Sender: Michael Travers Subject: Re: CM> Origins of the phrase Virtual Community Sender: Sally Bates Subject: ?Origins of the phrase Virtual Community I'm interested in tracking down the origins of the phrase vitual community. A friendly Yale library undertook a Nexis search for me and could find nothing earlier than Rheingold. Rheingold thinks he may have read it somewhere but isn't sure. In a paper that's been submitted for publication in a meteorology journal, I've attributed Rheingold with coining the phrase, but I'm uneasy about this. Rheingold definitely did not originate the phrase. For an earlier published usage, see the proceedings of the CPSR-sponsored symposium Directions in Advanced Computing 92. As part of this symposium, I organized a panel discussion titled "Virtual Society and Virtual Community". This title was arrived at through discussion with Douglas Schuler, the symposium organizer. So we may have coined the phrase, although most likely it was floating around before we used it. BTW I believe that Rheingold attended this event. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:16:43 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Peter D. Junger" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1358549818602.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.031 Sender: "Peter D. Junger" Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. Community Memory writes: : : Sender: Ersatzzz@aol.com : Subject: the vapors : : : hasn't the tale now passed into legend : about how Gates and his partner told IBM : that they had an operating system ready for : their forthcoming PC, and that it just needed : a little tinkering... and then wrote DOS in a : matter of months, thus getting in on the : ground floor with a non-existant product, and : deterring IBM from looking elsewhere? I don't know what Gates and Co. told IBM, but MSDOS and PCDOS was purchased by Microsoft from a small company--the original DOS was a quick and dirty rip-off for the 8086/8088 of CP/M for the 8080, 8085, and Z80. The original IBM PC was announced as coming with three operating systems: CP/M, PCDOS, and the P-system that was used with a semi-compiled version of Pascal. (I don't remember ever coming across the P-system and don't remember much about it.) To me the really interesting bit of history has to do with the failure of Digital Research's CP/M to become the standard operating system for the PC. By the time the PC came out, Digital Research had MP/M, a multi-tasking OS that was infinitely better than the original PCDOS. If anyone knows the true story of why CP/M lost out I certainly would like to hear it. -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH Internet: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:21:02 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Virtual Community" & "Digital Community" X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2111013197861.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.018 Sender: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" Subject: "Virtual Community" Not sure when that started but know I saw "digital villiage" in the early/mid '80s and it seemed to mean the same thing. Believe DECUS sposored something along those lines around then with a dialup BBS. P.fla ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:25:24 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <822080522123.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.026 Sender: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" Subject: Vaproware & the Osborne >Sometimes preannouncement is not malicious but just stupid. Osborne >Computer com >pany, the makers of the first portable computer (42 lbs.) went into bankrupcy s >hortly after announcing a new model while dealer's shelves were stocked with th >e old stuff. The cash flow dried up and the company ran out of funds before the > new model could be delivered. Saw a number of Osbornes and the original model just was not that interesting. Tiny screen with a limited display. My absolute criteria was that whatever I bought had to have at least 80x24 to be usable since a major use was to be in talking to mainframes where the "real" work was to be done. I had a VT-100 and modem at home at the time, and was just not willing to spend $3000 (could still buy a good car for that then) for something that was less capable. As I have mentioned before, other than the Sinclair ZX-80 and 81 "toys", the first computer I bought was a Columbia VP-1600 "transportable" - 8088/dual floppy/32 lbs/128k but was able to emulate a VT-100 "good enough". Warmly, Padgett ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:29:47 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & MS-DOS X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <732189063386.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.027 Sender: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" Subject: Vaproware & MS-DOS > back, hasn't the tale now passed into legend > about how Gates and his partner told IBM > that they had an operating system ready for > their forthcoming PC, and that it just needed > a little tinkering... and then wrote DOS in a > matter of months, thus getting in on the > ground floor with a non-existant product, and > deterring IBM from looking elsewhere? May be an urban legend but it just ain't so. My recollection (by crackey), is that Mr. Bill & co (didn't Pauul Allen do most of MS programming ?) said "yup" & went to Seattle Computer Products where Tim Patterson has a thingy called 86/DOS. MS leased it at first, then bought all rights around 1984 or so. Tim is still around somewhere (see his columns in "Dr. Dobb's" occasionally, why not ask him what happened ? While we are on that subject, v1.0 (I have a copy *somewhere*) was pretty basic. There was no "DEL" command - you used "ERASE", no directory structure (but then the PC did not support hard disks in 1981). Back then most people did not even buy an OS (wasn't it around $400 extra then ?) Instead running almost completely off the built-in ROM BASIC (why IBM was talking to Mr. Bill in the first place.) Warmly, Padgett ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:38:30 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Phil Gyford To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & Ted Nelson's Xanadu, Pointer to Wired story. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <81486159910.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.020 Sender: Phil Gyford Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & Ted Nelson's Xanadu. >There was a very well done article about Ted Nelson in WIRED Magazine a year >ago or more ago which claimed that his XANADU software project was the >longest standing and most expensive vaporware project ever. You can find the complete article at: http://www.hotwired.com/wired/3.06/features/xanadu.html ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' P H I L G Y F O R D WIRED UK work: +44 (0)171 775 3434 phil@wired.co.uk facs: +44 (0)171 775 3401 http://www.paranoia.com/~fabius home: +44 (0)171 622 9058 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:42:34 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Nelson Winkless To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Some memories of magazines X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1627073168153.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.033 Sender: Nelson Winkless Subject: CM: Some memories of magazines The comments by Larry Press and Walt Crawford stir recollections that really deserve some research before I blither about them, but that's too much work, so... SCCS (Southern California Computer Society) Interface Magazine foundered, as Larry recalls...and my cloudy memory says that Bob Jones (with his wife and gang of kids) stepped in to publish a magazine for that very large club of computer enthusiasts. I think some dispute broke out over who actually owned the magazine, when it turned out to be worth owning, and they parted ways...Bob going off the publish Interface Age, which flourished for some years. The leader of SCCS was a round, balding chap (Dr. Lou...unh...Lou ...can't quite make that name snap in) who was a prominent attendee at the World Altair Computer Conference. During some computer show in San Francisco, he led three or four of us on a tour of the restaurants at Ghirardelli Square. This involved walking among the patrons until Lou found somebody eating a dish that was interesting. He'd stand over the diner, pointing out the items on his plate, and commenting on their preparation and desirability. We, his captive audience, were as puzzled by this remarkable performance as the diners were. "Why are we watching people eat?" asked Carol Stagg, a member of our party who was then an ad space rep for Personal Computing. When Larry raises the topic of SCCS, it immediately evokes memories of embarrassment at Senor Pico's. Walt's enthusiasm for Creative Computing brings back a flood of things. When I became editor of Personal Computing, my dad became interested in computers, got one, began doing some advertising work (He was a bigtime ad copywriter...did the Kellogg's cereals spots for years, among other things, and wrote the Snap, Crackle & Pop song with one of my brothers) for Gene Murrow at Computer Power and Light in Studio City...and to my horror, began to publish articles in computer magazines under his own name. The problem was that his name was the same as mine. He was NBW Jr. I'm NBW III... but nobody pays any attention to the numbers. "You can't do that," I said. "It looks as if the editor of one magazine is writing for another. It's one thing to have your son follow in your footsteps, but to have your father do it is too confusing!" He was a bit testy, but began to use the name Timothy Purinton in doing a series of articles David Ahl bought for Creative. (These things involved a running character, a kid named Stan, who was a wizard at figuring odds, and applying his computer to matters that involved them.) After a couple of years of this, David was pretty tired of young Stan, and told me he thought the idea was worn out. "Don't tell me," I said, "go talk to Timothy." ...and one other point. Walt liked the practical "user" aspects of Creative, in contrast with Byte's relatively heavy technical slant. It was necessary to find a niche for each magazine. Byte was clearly a technical journal. We thought of Creative largely as a game magazine (Hammurabi, etc..) I made a big issue of saying that Personal Computing was a magazine "about people using computers." I didn't know much about the technology of computers (and not much about producing magazines), but I could write and select entertaining stuff about people, so that gave us the niche. We had a running them comparing personal computer enterprises with a kid's lemonade stand. We referred to The Lemonade Computer Company (for which Kim Behm did a number of of superb illustrations). It wasn't all that easy to find practical personal computer applications in the mid 70's. We ran pieces on selling spreadsheet services (pre-VisiCalc), one on keeping golf scores and statistics for tournaments, and one on selling "instant portraits" printed out in alpha characters by computer in booths at fairs, among a few others. The situation has changed in twenty years...but not by adding a whole lot of applications that people can sell as Lemonade services. Instead, the systems and software packages are placed in the hands of the end-users of the services. Some of us didn't anticipate this clearly. Enough. --Nels ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nelson Winkless Email: correspo@swcp.com ABQ Communications Corporation Voice: 505-897-0822 P.O. Box 1432 Fax: 505-898-6525 Corrales NM 87048 USA Website: http://www.swcp.com/correspo ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:46:35 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Suzanne M. Johnson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origin of "Virtual" X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1061826206394.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.019 Sender: "Suzanne M. Johnson" Subject: Origin of "Virtual" Regarding the request from Sally Bates on origin of "Virtual Community".. Back in the early 70's when Tenex became one of the first virtual memory operating systems, I can recall seeing and hearing "virtual" appended to many nouns. I suggest perhaps looking at the works of Christopher Evans (The Mighty Micro, The Micro Millenium) and/or Jacques Vallee (The Network Revolution). (Evans is early 70's, Vallee 70's and early 80's.) __________________________________________________ Suzanne M. Johnson Sunnyvale, California johnson@rahul.net ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:50:47 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Bill Anderson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> IMSAI 8080 and early word processors X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1435028257645.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.030 Sender: "Bill Anderson" Subject: Re: CM> S-100 microcomputers I still own an IMSAI 8080, serial no. 25. When I first purchased the machine in I think February 1973 or 74, it was the Altair/Imsai bus. That became the Altair/Imsai/Polymorphic bus. I was at the meeting on the bus standard that changed the name to S-100 bus. Wayne Green was not to happy about it and blasted in the decision in Byte magazine. BTW:) My IMSAI still works. However, since I no longer have an ASCII terminal, I have to use a my desktop or laptop (both Pentiums) as a terminal. My machine has the first Dutronic 8K memory boards in it, plus a couple Vector graphic 16K boards. My system went from Teletype and papertape, to video monitor with a Cherry Keyboard, to ASCII terminal. Along with paper tape, I tried the audio cassette and then went to 8in floppy disks. Some of the parts in that machine probably came from Tarbell. In those days, one had to be could at solder to build a PC. As for old word processing software. I think I still have an original copy of Electric Pencil floating around. Although the machine suffered many upgrades, I continued to use it on a regular basis until about 1983. Altough I know longer have them, I used to own an Onyx Z80 with a Corvus shoebox harddisk, and an Onyx Z8000 running the first version of UNIX released by Bob Marsh. Of course, I just got rid of my 300 baud acoustic coupler on the last move. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of "virtual community" and J.C.R. Licklider, 1968. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <560823005890.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838134740.024 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: Re: CPSR-HISTORY digest 31 > Sender: Sally Bates > Subject: ?Origins of the phrase Virtual Community > > > I'm interested in tracking down the origins of the phrase vitual > community. A friendly Yale library undertook a Nexis search for Licklider, J. C. R. and Taylor, Robert W., "The Computer as a Communication Device," Science and Technology, April, 1968, 21-31, speaks of communities of "communities of comon interest" as opposed to communities of common location. The context was scientific resarch and collaborative work using networked computers. Not the exact phrase, but perhaps the meaning you are looking for. Lar [Moderator's Note: J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted to read them.] ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:08:39 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of word "vaporware." X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <379455784715.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.010 Sender: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: CM> Origins of word "vaporware." > Oh yes, Vaporware is not limited to the Software world. When the > Commodore Amiga (or was that the Atari ST? I can never remember) was > first demonstrated at a trade show, it was running an amazing set of > software. The products looked like Microsoft Word, and other such > products. The demonstrators didn't want you to get to close, though, > because if you did, you would have found out that it was an IBM PC > stuffed into an Amiga case! It certainly wan't the Amiga. Its flagship demos were the bouncing ball, the eagle, and other graphics wonders. I suspect it might have been the ST because it was "IBM compatible" in an odd way: it ran a derivitive of CP/M-68K, the 68000 version of Digital Research's clone of Microsoft's clone of Digital Research's 8080 operating system. This compatibility went down all the way to odd design quirks of MS-DOS (like the DUP system call, copied from UNIX apparently to eventually support multitasking but finally used for other purposes) but was in the final analysis completely useless: MS-DOS software wasn't easily ported to the ST because of the radically different memory management environments. (I had an ST, briefly, but soon abandoned it for the Amiga) ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:15:34 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: LESPEA@muze.com (Leslie Pearson) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <222703291133.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.030 Sender: LESPEA@muze.com (Leslie Pearson) Subject: Early On-Line Services Does anyone remember the early On-Line services such as the Source? (I had friends who had an account on that in 1981-1982.) I also recently found some documents for a service called People Link/Plink that was active in the mid 1980's. I still occasionally e-mail or exchange Christmas cards with people I met there. I briefly glanced at the old literature - the baud rate was 300 baud with an extra charge for 1200 baud - wow - the on-line world has come a long way! Leslie Pearson (lespea@muze.com) ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:20:35 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: William Murray To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of the term "Vaporware" X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1241944177434.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.031 Sender: William Murray Subject: Re: CM> Origins of the term "Vaporware" I'm pretty sure that I saw this word for the first time in a review of a computer show--most likely Computer Faire. It was used to by the reviewer to characterize a program called VisiOn. The reviewer was highly critical because VisiOn didn't really exist, and since it had already been announced, the only possible reason for the show demo was to deter potential customers from buying competing products. I don't know if this was the origin of the word. Soon thereafter it was in common use. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:26:39 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: /S=J.WALKERLIDDELL/OU1=S26L07A/AD=ATTMAIL/C=US@mhs-fswa.attmail.com To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: The IBM 360/67 X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <113722912798.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.032 Sender: /S=J.WALKERLIDDELL/OU1=S26L07A/AD=ATTMAIL/C=US@mhs-fswa.attmail.com Subject: The IBM 360/67 This may have been the system that inspired one of my favorite computer folk tunes, "You Can Build a Mainframe from the Things You Find at Home." I won't bore you with the first four verses, but the last goes like this: Well I got my system running, I'll admit it's not the best. The data isn't [sic] right and the response time is a mess. It crashes every hour, and it isn't worth a damn, But I'm satisfied because it works just like an IBM! Jenny /s=J.WalkerLiddell/ou1=s26l07a@mhs-fswa.attmail.com "...I find e-mail to be often undependable and annoying to access..." Clifford Stoll, _Silicon Snake Oil_ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: darrahs@bucks.edu To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & Ted Nelson's Xanadu. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <22698961890.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.028 Sender: darrahs@bucks.edu Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & Ted Nelson's Xanadu. If I recall correctly, Jay Bolter discusses Nelson's XANADU project extensively in his book _Writing Space: The Computer, Hypertext, and the History of Writing_ I don't think Bolter said anything about XANADU as vaporware, but he did seem to be suggesting XANADU had acquired some kind of *mythic* status -- and that (perhaps) it might not ever become a *reality* I don't have the book here right now, so I hope I'm not mis-remembering. Susan Darrah darrahs@bucks.edu ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:37:13 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Robert.Foster@radiology.msu.edu To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of NEXIS? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <544736548432.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.025 Sender: Robert.Foster@radiology.msu.edu Subject: Re: CM> Origins of the phrase Virtual Community Greetings from the Virtual Desktop of Bob Foster >> How far back does Nexis go? What is this _Nexis_ that people refer to. You can email me directly on this thanks. Bob. [Moderator's Note: LEXIS-NEXIS may be one of the oldest, and most robust, examples of an online database accessible from myriad points across the globe. If anyone worked on implementing LEXIS-NEXIS, or has stories of its creation, please send them to the list. There's also a story here of how newspapers signed away electronic rights to this service long before understanding that one day they'd want them back.] Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:46:22 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: davidsol@panix.com (David S. Bennahum) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of first computer game. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <626386575979.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838216767.033 I am writing not as moderator, but as participant. For years, I was told that the first computer game (meaning a game with graphics, arcade-like) was created by Steve Russel, a student at MIT's Project MAC, around 1963. (For a good recounting of this, see Steven Levy's _Hackers_.) The game was called Spacewar. I now leared that the first computer game may have been built in 1958 by someone named William Higin-Botham who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratories in Upton, New York. Apparently he built a game of "tennis" that sounds a lot like Pong. His research involved designing radars and graphical displays, and calculating object trajectories. Simulating a tennis ball between two bats was apparently an easy problem, a problem which led to this game. Is this accurate? best, db ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:06:41 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Les Earnest To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2018305120.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.025 Sender: Les Earnest Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider The Moderator writes: J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted to read them. Licklider was a great guy and an inspiration to work with. He was indeed very influential, mostly through his recognition and support of inventions by others, but he did not direct Project MAC nor was he directly involved in starting ARPAnet, though he created the environment that made it possible. I first met Lick in 1949 when he gave me my first summer job as an undergraduate. He was spending the summer at the Naval Electronics Lab in San Diego, experimenting with the intelligibility of digitized speech under various encodings, a project that was about ten years ahead of its time. I next ran into him sometime after 1956 when I went to MIT Lincoln Lab to work on SAGE and found that he was a professor at MIT and doing consulting work at BBN. MIT was a hotbed of computer-related development at that time, based on Whirlwind, SAGE, MTC (the Memory Test Computer, used to test Jay Forester's magnetic core memory idea), TX-0 (a microcoded machine and the first transistorized computer there) and TX-2 (a 37-bit computer with elaborate byte manipulation features). The most important technological advance after the invention of computers, I believe, was timesharing, which made interactive computing feasible for the first time. The basic principles of timesharing were first stated by Prof. John McCarthy in an MIT memo dated January 1, 1959, which led to the establishment of Project Mac. McCarthy's interest in this scheme was motivated by his desire for economical intereactive computing in support of his research in artificial intelligence and was substantially influenced by the example of SAGE, which was a special-purpose timesharing system. The first two demonstration timesharing systems were created by Prof. Fernando Corbato at MIT and by John McCarthy and Ed Fredkin at BBN, both in the summer of 1962. McCarthy was invited to head Project MAC but chose instead to move to Stanford, so MAC was headed by Prof. Fano. ARPA was established as a result of the acute national paranoia brought on by successes in Soviet space technology in the late 1950s and Licklider was recruited to start the Information Processing Technology office there. Inasmuch as Lick had ties to both MIT and BBN and he perceived the importance of timesharing, he used his ARPA position to fund several timesharing development projects, one of which was Project MAC. As we know, timesharing became a very successful multi-billion dollar industry (in spite of the fact that IBM never figured out how to do it) and made possible a number of later developments, one of which was ARPAnet and another was practical display-oriented interactive computing. [Aside: One thing that annoys me about a couple of computer histories that have appeared on PBS television in recent years is the pretense that interactive computing began with personal computers and workstations. In fact, most of the basic principles of display-based interaction were developed on timesharing systems, which first appeared in the mid-1960s and continued to offer services superior to those of workstations until the mid-1980s.] Licklider also initiated ARPA's substantial funding of artificial intelligence research in the early 1960s, in the hope that this field could be developed to the point where computers could contribute to the so-called command-control problem. He was quite aware of the functional failures of SAGE and the other command-control systems being developed during that era. While the AI projects did spin off quite a bit of useful technology over the thirty years or so that they were heavily funded by ARPA, I believe that it would be fair to say that artificial intelligence research has not contributed much of direct value to the military establishement so far. Meanwhile, however, the Defense Department has continued to squander orders of magnitude more money on useless command-control-communications systems. After his first stint as head of ARPA IPT, Licklider tapped Ivan Sutherland to take over around 1965. Ivan had just finished doing his PhD dissertation on Sketchpad, using the TX-2 in "slow timesharing" mode (each user typically got 15 minutes of bare machine time every hour or two). Ivan, in turn, recruited Bob Taylor as his assistant and when Ivan moved on to Harvard, Bob took over and recruited Larry Roberts from NASA. Larry had also recently finished his PhD, on machine perception of three dimensional objects, and had subsequently developed an experimental communication link between the TX-2 computer, which by then had been converted to true timesharing, and the AN/FSQ-32 machine at System Development Corp. in Santa Monica, another timesharing project funded by Lick's office. Larry Roberts came to ARPA with the idea of developing ARPAnet and was the true father of that project. Both Taylor and Licklider recognized the importance of computer communications between timesharing systems, though Lick was not affiliated with ARPA at that time. Taylor arranged for the financial support of the project that brought it into existence. Roberts later took over as IPT head for a time, then moved on to BBN, which had become the ARPAnet contractor (against his recommendation, by the way). It is interesting to note that among those who shared the TX-2 computer at MIT Lincoln Lab's in the early 1960s during most evenings and weekends were PhD candidates Ivan Sutherland and Larry Roberts (cited above), Len Kleinrock, who later moved to UCLA and did much of the ARPAnet traffic queuing analysis, and Tom Stockham, who moved to the University of Utah and developed audio analysis techniques that he later was called upon to apply to the infamous recording gap on Richard Nixon's tape. Les Earnest (les@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 415 941-3984 12769 Dianne Drive Los Altos Hills, CA 94022 Fax: 415 941-3934 ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Audrie Krause To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> CPSR leadership changes. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1065984691523.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.039 [Moderator's Note: Audrie Krause, Executive Director of CPSR, the organization behind Community Memory, has resigned. She requested that I forward the following note to the list, which follows. Audrie was instrumental in forming this discussion group and supporting this project. I want to publicly thank her for making this group possible, and wish her the best.] ----------------------------------------------------- Dear CPSR Members and Friends, I am writing to notify you that I have resigned my position as CPSR's Executive Director, effective July 23, in order to explore the potential for creating an organization dedicated to developing grassroots support for technology-related social and political issues. My goal is to promote more effective citizen activism around issues such as technology-assisted privacy protection, electronic access to public records, and government surveillance technology. I hope to accomplish this by creating NetAction, an organization that will link the online activists who are working on these issues with traditional community-based organizations. I have thoroughly enjoyed my tenure with CPSR, and I want to thank all of you for the support and encouragement that you have given me, as well as for the significant amount of volunteer time and energy that many of you have devoted to CPSR during my tenure as Executive Director. As most of you already know, many of the technology-related issues being addressed today by online activists will impact the lives of people who are not online. In order to be successful in establishing sound public policy on these issues, online activists must become familiar with and begin to use the grassroots organizing techniques that community-based activists have been using effectively for years. Furthermore, we must reach out to and educate community activists and others in order to build effective coalitions around technology-related policy issues. What I hope to do is create an organization that will work to promote effective grassroots citizen advocacy campaigns by educating online activists in traditional grassroots organizing techniques, introducing online organizing techniques to community-based organizations, and creating effective coalitions around information-technology issues by linking online activists with grassroots organizers. If you are interested in learning more about my plans for NetAction, please send email to: akrause@igc.org, or contact me by phone at: (415) 775-8674. -- Audrie Krause Email: akrause@igc.org * Phone: (415) 775-8674 * Fax: (415) 673-3813 Mailing Address: 601 Van Ness Avenue, No. 631 San Francisco, CA 94102 ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:25:28 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Bill Anderson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1222911165127.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.029 Sender: "Bill Anderson" Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne During the time of Osbornes collapse, I was a Product Engineering Manager at Fortune Systems. I learned of the impending collapse from someone who applied for a position at Fortune. The store is a bit more complicated. While I don't remember the model numbers, the series of events went in this order. Osborne purchased a huge inventory of parts for their current model while pre-announcing the new model. Dealers put their orders on hold waiting for the new model, which created a serious cash flow crisis. As they struggled through recovery from that disaster, Osborne pre-announced yet another new model to which dealers acted in the same manner as the first pre-announcement. However, this time Osborne didn't have the cash reserves to survive and closed their doors. Bill Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:32:09 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: mike alvarez To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Why DOS won out. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1861146014527.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.030 Sender: mike alvarez Subject: Why DOS won out. In Robert Cringely's book ACCIDENTAL EMPIRES, he states that IBM visited Gates and company first and were told they should talk to the guy who wrote CP/M. When IBM got there, Gary K. was out flying his plane; his wife Mary, after scrutinizing IBM's disclosure agreement, didn't want to sign it. So IBM went back to Gates and the rest is history. Gates bought Patterson's "quick and dirty" DOS for $50,000 (what a bargain, huh?), he and Allen got DOS to where it'd run on the brand new IBM PC and that folks is how we got to where we are today. [Moderator's Note: Is there anyone on this list with first-hand experience working for Bill Gates in the early years (or access to someone with those memories who would be willing to contribute)? Those recollections would be much appreciated.] ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:39:03 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Bill Anderson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> The end of CP/M. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1756604120941.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.041 Sender: "Bill Anderson" Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. There are times when I wished I would have kept more documentation and magazines from those days. Alas, moving them became to much of a burden. CP/M lost the war when the machines grew to be larger than 64K of memory. Digital Research was just too slow in responding to the market changes. CP/M eventually became DR DOS and was purchased by Novell. I still have DR DOS 6.0 and use Novell DOS 7 instead of MSDOS on the one and only machine that I have left running Windows 3.11. The big battle was between MP/M and OASIS. Without a doubt, OASIS was a much better operating system. After fighting with MP/M for a few months, I switched to OASIS. At that time, my IMSAI ran CP/M and OASIS, my Z-80 Onyx was strictly OASIS, and the other ONYX was running UNIX version 7. All this was in late 70's and early 80's. My Onyx Z8000 was replaced by a Fortune System and then finally, around 1986, I surrendered and purchased a PC Clone. Has anyone ever stopped and consider the amount of money we have spent upgrading and changing machines over the years. Bill Anderson On Jul 22, 11:16pm, Peter D. Junger wrote: > Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. > > Sender: "Peter D. Junger" > Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. > > Community Memory writes: > > : > : Sender: Ersatzzz@aol.com > : Subject: the vapors > : > : > : hasn't the tale now passed into legend > : about how Gates and his partner told IBM > : that they had an operating system ready for > : their forthcoming PC, and that it just needed > : a little tinkering... and then wrote DOS in a > : matter of months, thus getting in on the > : ground floor with a non-existant product, and > : deterring IBM from looking elsewhere? > > I don't know what Gates and Co. told IBM, but MSDOS and PCDOS was > purchased by Microsoft from a small company--the original DOS was a > quick and dirty rip-off for the 8086/8088 of CP/M for the 8080, 8085, > and Z80. The original IBM PC was announced as coming with three > operating systems: CP/M, PCDOS, and the P-system that was used with a > semi-compiled version of Pascal. (I don't remember ever coming across > the P-system and don't remember much about it.) > > To me the really interesting bit of history has to do with the failure > of Digital Research's CP/M to become the standard operating system for > the PC. By the time the PC came out, Digital Research had MP/M, a > multi-tasking OS that was infinitely better than the original PCDOS. > > If anyone knows the true story of why CP/M lost out I certainly would > like to hear it. > > -- > Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH > Internet: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu > ______________________________________________________________________ > Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) > Moderator: Community Memory > http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html > A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org > Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. > Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? > It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: > SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST > ______________________________________________________________________ > > >-- End of excerpt from Peter D. Junger Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:45:04 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> SCCS Interface magazine. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <93790757303.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.031 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: SCCS Interface > Sender: "Kip Crosby, CHAC" > Subject: Tracking mags > > Lar Press wrote: > >Does anyone recall "SCCS Interface?" It was the second nationally > >circulated magazine (between Byte and Kilobaud) but fell to gross > >incompetence very soon. > > It would be interesting to define "very soon" more exactly. The CHAC has > the first five issues (which we got from somebody in Virginia of all places) > but we'd like the rest of the set, except we don't know how many that was. I have Dec 75, Jan-Oct 76, Dec 76, Jan Feb, July, Sept, 1977. These were slick and sold nationally. They were preceded by a local newsletter which was just offset or Xeroxed. They also include two different publishers -- Like Byte there was a big fall-apart with the original publisher, law suits, two magazines with nearly identical names (SCCS Interface and Interface Age) and looks. Lots of lost time and money and eventually everyone gone. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:51:02 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: swolff@cisco.com (Stephen Wolff) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <690123261661.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.028 Sender: swolff@cisco.com (Stephen Wolff) Subject: Re: CM> Origins of "virtual community" and J.C.R. Licklider, 1968. >[Moderator's Note: J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and >least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He >set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at >MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If >anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted >to read them.] I heard Lick at an electrical engineering conference once, and I recall him saying he felt perfectly at home among double-Es because of his initials. -s Stephen Wolff Business Development ciscoSystems 703 397 5615(V) 5537(F) ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:58:56 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Rob Slade, doting grandpa of Ryan & Trevor"@Sunnyside.COM To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1697162578136.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.038 Sender: "Rob Slade, doting grandpa of Ryan & Trevor" Subject: RE: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? >Sender: "Richard J. Smith" > >Out of curiosity, I'd like to know if anyone on this list >knows of an early usage of the Internet for distance >education. I can only give you negative information. In 1985, I was responsible for setting up the telecommunications for the World Logo Conference. So far as I have been able to determine, this was the first fully integrated on-site/ online conference using static data files, email, and real time/chat functions to involve offsite and onsite participants in the same sessions. My report on the conference, "Online from Paradise" was published in Teleconferencing V and IPCC '87. (All of which is by the way, because it happened on Compu$pend.) In reworking the paper for the more general topic of training, I did an ERIC search on everything I could think of that potentially related to computer mediated communications in education. Of the 32 references I eventually found, none were based on use of the Internet. So, unless someone can come up with a really hidden reference, nothing was *published* prior to 1987. However, I *do* know that the husband/SO of an English instructor at SFU was acting as "poet in non-residence" to a public school English class. The kids were middle school level, as I recall. (I had peripheral contact with the project, although I was not formally involved.) This was the 1987/88 school year. During that term an extension course from SFU was also announced that was to use email and fax. ====================== roberts@decus.ca rslade@vcn.bc.ca slade@freenet.victoria.bc.ca link to virus, book info at http://www.freenet.victoria.bc.ca/techrev/rms.html Author "Robert Slade's Guide to Computer Viruses" 0-387-94663-2 (800-SPRINGER) ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:05:12 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Paul Andrews To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <927067649511.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.035 Sender: Paul Andrews Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne Folks, I bought one of the first Osborne I's in Washington State. It weighed 26 lbs. and my invoice, which I still have, was for $1795 (only by adding an Epson MX-80 printer, paper, cable and external monitor did I get up to $3000). Although the II was late in coming Osborne's real problem was lack of innovation and lousy support. Kaypro came out with a better machine on the CP/M side (before the gradual shift to IMB PC and DOS). Paul Andrews/Seattle Times ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:11:58 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Paul Andrews To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & MS-DOS X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1788181737917.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.037 Sender: Paul Andrews Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & MS-DOS Folks, Tim Paterson(cq) is I believe still at Microsoft. Microsoft did not lease but purchased DOS from Seattle Computer prior to its 1981 release on the IBM PC. For a detailed account of the chronology please see my and Steve Manes' book; we tried hard to nail this stuff down with multiple documentation, including material from the Seattle Computer lawsuit against Microsoft. Paul Andrews/Seattle Times co-author, GATES: How Microsoft's Mogul Reinvented an Industry and Made Himself the Richest Man in America ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:18:52 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & the P-System. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1375125822331.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.042 Sender: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. > The original IBM PC was announced as coming with three > operating systems: CP/M, PCDOS, and the P-system that was used with a > semi-compiled version of Pascal. (I don't remember ever coming across > the P-system and don't remember much about it.) Ah yes, the P-system. "Daddy's playing Pascal. That's where you try and see how many dots you get before you have to say nasty words." When it compiled a program to pcode it cleared the screen and put dots across the top... they had something to do with the code generated, since different programs produced different dots... but it was mostly feedback to tell you it was stil alive. > If anyone knows the true story of why CP/M lost out I certainly would > like to hear it. It cost about $30 more, and the first version had a problem where you could corrupt a disk if you swapped it at the wrong time. I seem to recall that was because of buffering in the driver or file system. You could force all the buffers to flush with a ^C at the prompt level. I've noticed that MS-DOS finally allows you to do that level of buffering with DOS 7 (under Windows 95). ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:24:50 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> First suites, Context MBA? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <401853371689.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.033 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: suites > > Subject: Suites > > First "suite" I ran into was something that came packaged with the Columbia > VP-1600 I bought in 1983. The "Perfect" group included Perfect Calc > (spreadsheet), Perfect Filer (sort of a database), and Perfect Writer. Anyone recall Context MBA -- spreadhseet, word process, data base and perhaps terminal emulation all in one giant program for the PC. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:30:32 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: davidsol@panix.com (David S. Bennahum) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of "mirror world" idea? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <213099172231.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838303890.043 In the past six months, like a giant herd wheeling in one direction, large companies are suddenly racing to "aggregate local content" on the Web and make it available on a city by city basis. Microsoft has CityScape; AT&T has Home Town Network; AOL has Digital Cities -- whatever the name the idea is similar: to get local newspapers, local information like movie listings, and pull it all together in one location named after your home town (e.g. "Digital City: Boston"). All claim their sites will be ready sometime in 1997. I am wondering if there are earlier examples of on-line services creating city-wide databases of this sort, and if so does anyone recall them? Were they successes, flops? Is there any historical basis for this universal consensus that this is a good metaphor based on previous online services? In his book "Mirror Worlds" (Oxford University Press, 1991), Yale computer science professor David Gelernter writes of a future where we can access minutely rendered computer-generated "mirrors" of our cities, towns, homes. These mirrors would exist as massive databases, visually rendered, easy to navigate and querry. It is a fantasy that's familiar (it reminds of me of a computer game--SimCity), and I wonder, tracing the idea back, when it first appeared in computer science. It seems the current CityScape, et. al. ventures are possibly a crude permutation of this idea. best, db ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:05:29 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "christopher f. chiesa" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Plywood computing. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <523695405328.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.016 Sender: "christopher f. chiesa" Subject: Re: The IBM 360/67 I for one would like to see the complete lyric to "You Can Build A Mainframe from the Things You Find At Home"(sic). E-mail is fine, if this is not adjudged to be of general interest... That also reminds me of a real book I owned for a while, called "how to build a working digital computer" -- out of things like wood, screws, paper clips, and light bulbs. (There was even a memory drum made out of an oatmeal can, I kid you not.) I was very excited to find this book, and had visions of constructing a clattering monstrosity that, if nothing else, might be able to "add 2 and 3 to get 5," that sort of thing. I've rarely been more disappointed than I was when I got around to READING the book. It turned out that while, yes, there was a sort of "input" unit that let the operator turn a ten-position rotary switch to a particular position and allowed the binary form of that number to appear on a light bank, and an "output" unit that operated essentially the same way, there was NO CPU -- the last section of the book, under "operation," revealed that the HUMAN operator did all the math, logic, instruction-decoding and -execution, and simply set the "input" and "output" banks so that the right patterns of lights appeared on the plywood "display panel." SHEEEEESH. I'm sure glad I read through the entire book BEFORE spending months constructing anything! You had to BUILD your own rotary switches and bulb-sockets, for crying out loud! On the other hand, once when I was a kid, I managed to wire up a couple of relays, two toggle switches, and two lightbulbs to make a "one-bit" binary adder! To me, that's more of a "computer" than the labor-intensive project described in that doggoned BOOK! Chris Chiesa lvt-cfc@cyber1.servtech.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:11:53 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Carl Dick To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "The Colonel" X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <546565896713.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.048 Sender: Carl Dick Subject: THE COLONEL Shortly after the Altair kit and Byte Magazine were established, a flim-flam artist ran a 2 page spread in Byte. He called himself Colonel ___ (I can't remember the surname). The mock-ups in the ads were not functional, and no working products were ever developed. I believe there was a 4 KB RAM card, a CPU card, an I/O card, and maybe a 4th item. I recall chatting with a freelance reporter who covered the story. After Colonel X was arrested, he convinced his jailer to open a mail-drop business to sell the Colonel's software bundle; something like 100 programs for $50. The programs were junk, or lifted from some other source, or simply didn't exist. As I recall, he once escaped by convincing the guards that he was some form of OSHA inspector. Does anyone recall more detail? -- Carl Dick trimagna@primenet.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:20:01 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider, pointers to more info. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1946448054200.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.055 Sender: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben) Subject: Re: CM> Origins of "virtual community" and J.C.R. Licklider, 1968. Reply to message from lpress@ISI.EDU of Tue, 23 Jul Good to see Larry's reference to the Liclider and Taylor article describing "communities of common interest". The article is appeared in 1968 before the ARPANET and sets out the vision that the ARPANET helped make possible. [~snip~] Our online Netizens book has several chapters referring to Licklider and describing the vision that set the basis for the ARPANET and then the Internet. See especially Chapter 5 "The Vision of Interactive Computing and the Future" and Chapter 6 Cybernetics, Time-sharing, Human-Computer Symbiosis and Online Communities: Creating a Supercommunity of Online Communities The URL for the Netizens netbook is http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ > >[Moderator's Note: J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and >least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He >set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at >MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If >anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted >to read them.] I agree that Licklider is very important and we have tried to document some of his contribution in our Netizens netbook. It would be good to see some discussion of his contribution here on this list as well as hear memories of him and his work. Ronda au329@cleveland.freeenet.edu rh120@columbia.edu -- Ronda Hauben "The Netizens: On the History and Impact of au329@cleveland.freenet.edu Usenet and the Internet http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: /S=J.WALKERLIDDELL/OU1=S26L07A/AD=ATTMAIL/C=US@mhs-fswa.attmail.com To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <258905700587.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.051 Sender: /S=J.WALKERLIDDELL/OU1=S26L07A/AD=ATTMAIL/C=US@mhs-fswa.attmail.com Subject: Dead ends of hardware evolution I've heard of some unusual and now-abandoned ways of putting together computer hardware: my father tells me that someone really built a computer that used decimal memory rather than binary storage, and another filk tune (to the tune of "Old Time Religion") refers to two more. "Oh the IBM 650 had a memory quite nifty on a drum revolving swiftly and it's good enough for me", and also one I don't completely recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. Jenny /s=J.WalkerLiddell/ou1=s26l07a@mhs-fswa.attmail.com "...I find e-mail to be often undependable and annoying to access..." Clifford Stoll, _Silicon Snake Oil_ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:30:38 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> SCCS Interface magazine. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1959611208837.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.045 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: re SCCS Interface > large club of computer enthusiasts. I think some dispute broke out over who > actually owned the magazine, when it turned out to be worth owning, and they > parted ways...Bob going off the publish Interface Age, which flourished for With law suits all around! For a while both mags continued, with nearly indentical mastheads. The word "interface" was printed very large, and Bob's had a teeny "age" between the bars of the last "E" in Interface. We (SCCS) felt we were cheated -- I don't know how Bob felt. >The leader of SCCS was a round, balding chap (Dr. Lou...unh...Lou Lou Fields. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:35:03 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J. C. R. Licklider, pointer to more info. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <229739816103.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.047 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: J. C. R. Licklider > [Moderator's Note: J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and > least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He > set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at > MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If > anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted > to read them.] I fully agree that Lick's contribution was immense, and he was a super nice person to boot. For an overview on Lick, Engelbart, and others see http://som1.csudh.edu/fac/lpress/articles/history.htm. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:38:46 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Joshua S. Hodas" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <93609752326.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.058 Sender: "Joshua S. Hodas" Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services >Sender: LESPEA@muze.com (Leslie Pearson) >Subject: Early On-Line Services > > >Does anyone remember the early On-Line services such as the Source? (I >had friends who had an account on that in 1981-1982.) I also recently >found some documents for a service called People Link/Plink that was >active in the mid 1980's. I still occasionally e-mail or exchange >Christmas cards with people I met there. > >I briefly glanced at the old literature - the baud rate was 300 baud with >an extra charge for 1200 baud - wow - the on-line world has come a long >way! > >Leslie Pearson >(lespea@muze.com) I was an early subscriber to the source. My first account was one of their first 50 or so. I don't remember the year, but I would guess 1979 or so. My access was from my Apple II (serial #3318) via a hayes 300 baud "micromodem". The hayes was a two-piece job with a card in the Apple two connected to a smoke-grey lucite box about the size of the current supra modems which acted as a coupler. I recall that it was quite a task explaining it to the phone company. First I had to have them come out and install a modular jack in my room (this was, I think just before the time of the break-up so we still had permanently wired phones in our house) and give them the FCC certification number and ringer equivalence number (which basically rated the electrical load the modem would put on the line in terms of an equivalent number of bell ringers.) before they would approve its use.(And recall, in those days the phone company was always checking the load on your line for signs of ilegal self-installed phones). As to the source itself I don't remember a whole lot. I dialed in through local Telenet and Tymenet (do they still exist) point-of-presence. You would first get a prompt from the POP and then type a command to connect to the source (which was in Maclean, Virginia). Then it was a pretty simple text based interface. They had email (self-contained of course), bulletin-boards, and chat. I don't remember if their was multi-person chat rooms or not. I don't think there was much source-provided content. The only real bit of histor I remeber was a time when some guy started a joke campaign on the bulletin-boards that he called "Americans United to Beat the Dutch". I have no idea what motivated it, but it seemed to hang on for some time. I also recall a period of controversy over the sysops censoring (or at least reading) personal mail, and an agreement that it would stop. At some point in the early 80's the source was bought out and shut down by compuserve and everyone got a compuserve account. This was soon after I left for college, and I remember that when I asked for them to change the billing info from my parents to me, they said this would require closing the old account and opening a new one, which I did (only to close the compuserve account a few months later since I didn't like it). Last year I was at my Dad's apartment and noticed a compuserve magazine. I asked him when he got an account and he said he had been getting those magazines for years and just threw them away. It turns out they had never closed the old account and had been billing his credit card the base charge every month for more than ten years. Since his secretary pays the bils and he never looks at them they had just been paid. In the end I think compuserve agreed to refund about $50-$100! Josh Hodas ------------ Dr. Joshua S. Hodas hodas@cs.hmc.edu Department of Computer Science (909) 621-8650 Harvey Mudd College (909) 621-8465 (fax) 1250 North Dartmout Ave Claremont, CA 91711 http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~hodas ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:42:17 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: deyoung@rpcp.mit.edu (Tice DeYoung) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early memory of "networking." X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <64979254537.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.052 Sender: deyoung@rpcp.mit.edu (Tice DeYoung) Subject: DATA TRANSMISSION BETWEEN INCOMPATABLE SYSTEMS Back in the late seventies to early eighties we had a data transmission problem. We had two PCs, one had an 8" floppy drive and the other had a 5.25" floppy drive. Of course we had the need to have similar data on both systems (I forget why). Luckily we were running CP/M. We would put the data into memory on one system using DDT and check the starting and ending places for the data. We had two routines running in the upper parts of the memory, one to send and the other to receive data. We took twisted pair and connected the two systems together. We told one system to send a certain number of bytes, starting at the right location. We then had a compatriot standing at the other end of the hall who simultaneously started the receive program, this time receiving a certain number of bytes to be stored starting at the same location. It usually took several tries to get the timing of send and receive correctly, but it worked. This was my first introduction to "networking". Tice DeYoung ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:45:53 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: rab@well.com To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Ted Nelson, Xanadu, pointers to more info. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <89405658752.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.053 Sender: rab@well.com Subject: Re: CPSR-HISTORY digest 34 Someone wrote: >There was a very well done article about Ted Nelson in WIRED Magazine a >year ago or more ago which claimed that his XANADU software project was >the longest standing and most expensive vaporware project ever. Actually, I would call that WIRED article one of the most disgusting examples of yellow journalism, biased reporting, and shoddy research that has ever seen print. The author did not get any significant facts right beyond those dates and events which had already been widely published, and even those he managed to creatively reinterpret in the worst possible way. If you read the article, I suggest you also read Ted's response to it, available on the Web at http://www.well.com/user/rab/lemonade.html Also see Ted's pages at http://www.xanadu.net/the.project/ Adding up all the money spent over the years on Xanadu would be tricky at best, but I'm quote confident in asserting that the total is at least an order of magnitude, and maybe two, *smaller* than what the typical large computer industry vaporware vendor spends on marketing non-existent products in just one year. As for the number of years it's been pending, well, there it's clearly the hands-down winner. ;-) -- Robert Bickford rab@well.com Professional Wild-Eyed Visionary ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:49:34 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Peter D. Junger" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of NEXIS? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <741159630973.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.056 Sender: "Peter D. Junger" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of NEXIS? Our Moderator writes: : [Moderator's Note: LEXIS-NEXIS may be one of the oldest, and most robust, : examples of an online database accessible from myriad points across the : globe. If anyone worked on implementing LEXIS-NEXIS, or has stories of its : creation, please send them to the list. There's also a story here of how : newspapers signed away electronic rights to this service long before : understanding that one day they'd want them back.] LEXIS, which is an online database of law cases, statutes, and related matters started out in life as a project of the Ohio Bar Association and was originally known as OBAR. It started up in 1970 or 1971, I believe. That was the first academic year that I taught at Case Western Reserve University Law School which was the first Law School in the country to have an OBAR terminal. The terminals were large dedicated boxes connected by a 300 baud modem and dialup telephone lines (at least I don't think that they were dedicated) to a central mainframe that held the database. The terminals were connected to a printer. (I think--though today it is hard to believe--that the printer was one of those that used that slippery and nearly unreadable heat sensitive paper.) The initial data base consisted of the full text of many--perhaps most--Ohio cases and nothing else. The cases were all in upper case as if they had all been entered into the system by Archie the cockroach on the day that the capital key was locked on. One could search through the cases using boolean operators; the present Lexis system still uses a superset of those operators. It was, and remains, an excellent system for finding cases dealing with the subject that one was interested in. But I doubt if anyone originally dreamed of using it as the source of cases--between the slow speed and the solid capitals it would have been useless for that purpose and, even if that were not true, the output from the system went only to the terminal and the printer. (I remember that several years later after it was taken over by Mead Data and renamed Lexis, I tried to figure out some way to supstitute and Apple // or an Osborne luggable for the printer. Not being a hardware type I never did figure out a way to do it. I also remember staring at it, trying to determine whether it would be possible to get into the data base and erase the word ``not'' in some critical court decision.) -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH Internet: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:53:38 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "J.D. Abolins" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1685936989214.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.049 Sender: "J.D. Abolins" Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Leslie Pearson wrote: > Does anyone remember the early On-Line services such as the Source? (I > had friends who had an account on that in 1981-1982.) I also recently > found some documents for a service called People Link/Plink that was > active in the mid 1980's. I still occasionally e-mail or exchange > Christmas cards with people I met there. I was also on People Link (let me see, I think it was a part of the American Home Network company). It was the first online service I was on. Back about 1986 or so, I saw a little article in some newsletter or another than mentioned a Jewish Activist Network upon People Link. THis was of interest to me and I signed up. Yes, it was a simple 300-1200 baud system. J.D. Abolins Meyda BBS (Ewing, NJ) 609-883-8124 "Meyda means 'Information.'" WWW Home Page: http://pluto.njcc.com/~jda-ir/ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:57:15 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: jgro@netcom.com (Jeremy Grodberg) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1152940673435.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.040 Sender: jgro@netcom.com (Jeremy Grodberg) Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services Leslie Pearson wrote: > >Does anyone remember the early On-Line services such as the Source? The only one I remember was Portal, which seemed like a really good deal. I remember planning to sign up for it, except no one else I knew had email and I was not that interested in reading Usenet to be worth the money. -- Jeremy Grodberg jgro@netcom.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:01:23 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: (Peter Capek) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Pointer to article on origins of "vaporware." X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1545033988683.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838388127.039 Date: 24 Jul 1996 10:22:43 EDT From: (Peter Capek) Subject: Origin of "vaporware" According to http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art26.htm the term "vaporware" was coined to describe OVATION, a product announced in 1983 and never shipped. Peter Capek ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:07:10 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Peter H. Salus" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning, PLATO. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <768590341828.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.033 Status: RO Sender: "Peter H. Salus" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? I think that distance learning on the Net precedes the Internet as we know it by many years. The first real system was PLATO, developed at U.Illinois in the late '60s and marketed by Control Data for ``computer- aided instruction.'' In 1976 this was priced at $5 million for the software + $6K per terminal. Essick and Kolstad elaborated the Illinois software to produce ``notes,'' announced at the Santa Monica USENIX in January 1983. See Hiltz & Turoff (1978, 1993); H.J. Peters in Computer Decisions 8 (1976); J.S. Quarterman, The Matrix (1990; and P.H. Salus, Casting the Net (1995). ----------------------------------------------------------- Peter H. Salus #3303 4 Longfellow Place Boston, MA 02114 peter@pedant.com +1 617 723 3092 ----------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: davidsol@panix.com (David S. Bennahum) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Was, Why DOS won out, Is: Myths of personal computing? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <133328380252.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.037 Status: RO Sender: Bryan Pfaffenberger Subject: Was, Why DOS won out, Is: Myths of personal computing? I recall reading an interview with Gary Kildall (can't remember where, sorry) that he strenously denies what he calls the "myth" that he gave IBM the cold shoulder, and was not "flying his plane" when IBM came to call. Rather, as I recall, he said the non-disclosure that IBM proposed would have limited DR's then-current business (in some way, sorry don't remember), and he needed time to figure out the implications of the agreement. This wasn't fast enough for IBM's taste, apparently. Anyone else recall this interview? Bryan Pfaffenberger Div. of Technology, Culture, and Communication School of Engineering/University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22936 USA 804 924-6098 ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:24:35 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "keith reid-green" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Earliest interactive computer game X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1595688236874.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.036 Status: RO Sender: "keith reid-green" Subject: re: Earliest interactive computer game Yesterday, somebody asked about the earliest interactive computer game. There was a tic-tac-toe game on the IBM 704 where I worked in 1957. The player played against the computer, using two of six sense switches to denote the row and column to play in. The computer then made its play, and results were displayed on a CRT (cathode-ray tube). The tennis game referred to in yesterday's note probably was the one played on an analog computer at Brookhaven Labs in 1958. This is according to David Ahl's essay on computer games in Encyclopedia of Computer Science, 3rd. ed., C 1993, Van Nostrand Reinhold, NY. Keith S. Reid-Green Educational Testing Service ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:34:56 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: bill@atd.co.za (William Bowles) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> History of E-Publishing on the Net X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <254309664495.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.046 Status: RO Sender: bill@atd.co.za (William Bowles) Subject: History of E-Publishing on the Net I don't know if you're developing Community Memory in some kind of chronological order but I've been involved with the Internet since around 1979 when I was living in New York and set up the New York On-Line (NYOL) BBS, probably the first BBS dedicated to the networking of non-corporate news and information over the Internet (and FidoNet). Essentially NYOL started as a 'best of' Peacenet. I would download around 180 newsgroups per day and extract the best stories, journalism, press releases etc and re-network them using FidoNet feeds. The idea was that PeaceNet would offer them as a 'value-added' service to PN subscribers, whereby users could get the essential info on around 25 subjects without having to go through the tedious process of searching through 100s of Newsgroups (though this never happened). But it was from this that developed I think probably the first electronic journal produced outside the corporate world, "SouthScan - A Bulletin of Southern African Affairs". SouthScan is a weekly print publication based in London that probably offers the most authoritative analysis of South Africa and the southern African region available. It targetted policy makers in govt and business, and in the US its subscribers included the CIA, the State Dept as well as universities and libraries and of course the UN and relevant NGOs. I met the publisher of SouthScan in London in 1986 where we decided to produce an electronic edition for US readers. This was in the days before cheap leased lines and 28.8 modems, let alone Web sites! A Chronology of the creation of the Electronic and Print Editions of SouthScan Wednesday PM or Thursday AM: 1. The stories in ASCII format would be sent (x-modem) from London to PeaceNet in California. This was the most hazardous part of the process as x-modem transfers were liable to crap out and often involved sending the files many times before they made it through intact. Preparing the Print Edition 2. I would dump the stories into a Pagemaker template, format the layout and produce camera-ready artwork on my laser printer. 3. A highspeed copier-binder would be used to create the edition and around 4 hours after laying out the pages, the edition would be in the post box on its way to our subscribers. Preparing the Electronic Editions 4. I would then prepare 3 different electronic editions; a. for the NYOL BBS (this could be searched rapidly) b. for PeaceNet c. for Newsnet (this had to contain special format commands so that it could be searched, headlines called up etc. By the end of the day, a print and three electronic editions were created. Considering that the entire process was done by one person (me), it was a pretty advanced development for the time. And aside from glitches, the entire process was completed in about 4 hours (not including the writing of the stories of course!). The US edition was done this way with changes, for nearly four years. As communications reliability improved, instead of receiving ASCII files from London, I would get PageMaker files which cut down on the production time for the print edition but increased production time for electronic editions. Today of course, such things are commonplace but in 1986 the idea of using the Net for this kind of product was virtually unknown. Bill +----------------------------------------------------+ + All Things Digital (Pty) Ltd - Internet Architects + + 158 Jan Smuts Av, Rosebank 2196 South Africa + + Tel: +2711-788-0263 Fax: +2711-788-0210 + + Cel: +2782-566-3902 Email: support@atd.co.za + + http://www.atd.co.za + +----------------------------------------------------+ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:43:37 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: kateley@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (Julian Kateley) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <134237122816.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.035 Status: RO Sender: kateley@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (Julian Kateley) Subject: Re: CM> J.C.R. Licklider He also made major contributions to the 1966 EDUCOM Task Force on Information Networks "Summer Study" held in Boulder, Colorado. These contributions are documented in the book "EDUNET - Report of the Summer Study on Information Networks". I have a vivid recollection of him at that month-long meeting and very much enjoyed his participation. [Moderator's Note: Could you share with us some specifics as to how he participated, what he recommended?] -- Julian Kateley, kateley@colostate.edu, (970) 491-5778 -- ACNS, Colorado State University, Fort Collins CO 80523-2028 ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:50:28 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: (Peter Capek) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> City-oriented on-line services, Minitel. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1706914056427.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.043 Status: RO Sender: (Peter Capek) Subject: City-oriented on-line services David Bennahum wrote: > I am wondering if there are earlier examples of on-line services > creating city-wide databases of this sort, and if so does anyone recall > them? Were they successes, flops? Is there any historical basis for this > universal consensus that this is a good metaphor based on previous online > services? I recall a service advertised in New York Magazine (I probably tore out the ad, and will look for it) about 3 years ago which was based on the use of the French Minitel terminal and for a relatively small monthly fee offered a service such as you describe. My vague recollection is that it offered some yellow-pages-type information, movie and other entertainment schedules and information and so on. Aside from the ad, I never saw it mentioned anywhere else. Peter Capek ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:57:15 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Paul Ceruzzi To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Licklider, Timesharing, and Popular History X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1114313288833.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.044 Status: RO Sender: Paul Ceruzzi Subject: Licklider, Timesharing, and Popular History In an aside to a posting about J.C.R. Licklider, Les Earnest lamented the tendency of popular histories, esp. recent PBS documentaries, to credit interactive computing too much to the PC and not enough to timesharing. As one of the consultants and narrators of the PBS/BBC series "The Machine that Changed the World," I plead guilty to this error. However I offer as an apology my belief that the mental model of a "computer utility," which early time-sharing advocates had, impeded progress. That is, they thought of one or a few central computers (one even proposed siting it in Kansas City), accessed through a jack in the wall just like you get electric power. For a variety of technical reasons (so far!) it is not practical to have individual electric power plants in everyone's home, car, briefcase, etc. But it _is_ not only practical but preferable to have computing power so distributed (with a few exceotions). That was what I was trying to point out in the series. If I/we seemed to have slighted the time-sharing pioneers, I apologize. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:04:49 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1497738298288.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.049 Status: RO Sender: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben) Subject: Re: CM> J.C.R. Licklider Reply to message from les@Steam.Stanford.EDU of Thu, 25 Jul > > >Sender: Les Earnest >Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider > >The Moderator writes: > J.C.R. Licklider may well be the most influential, and > least publicly recognized, person in the history of computer science. He > set ARPA on course towards constructing ARPANET and directed Project MAC at > MIT; he also funded Engelbart's work on creating the mouse and windows. If > anyone has recollections of Licklider, I think we would all be delighted > to read them. > >Licklider was a great guy and an inspiration to work with. He was Les, why do you say Licklider was an inspiration to work with? >indeed very influential, mostly through his recognition and support of >inventions by others, but he did not direct Project MAC nor was he >directly involved in starting ARPAnet, though he created the >environment that made it possible. Do you have any sense of what guided him to determine what to support? Though he didn't direct Project MAC originally, Robert Fano describes talking to Licklider and making up the proposal after the talk. Also, several people, including Larry Roberts have written that Licklider's view of the most important problem in computer science played an important role in their recognition of the importance of computer networking. The vision of an intergalactic network seemed to play a significant role in guiding the development first of time sharing and then of computer networking. Also, the vision described at the end of the paper "The Computer as A Device"(Science and Technology, April 1968), that Licklider wrote with Robert Taylor raised the crucial question in developing computer networking as "Will `to be on line' be a privilege or a right? " They said that the impact of computer networking on society would rest on the resolution of this question. That the impact would be good if all would have the advantage, and bad if computer networking weren't made available. This is still a crucial issue that hasn't been enough considered and taken into account, at least with respect to the policy that the U.S. is currently developing on access to computer networking for the U.S. population. It does seem particularly farsighted for Licklider and Taylor to have raised this criteria as the crucial criteria back in 1968. >I first met Lick in 1949 when he gave me my first summer job as an >undergraduate. He was spending the summer at the Naval Electronics >Lab in San Diego, experimenting with the intelligibility of digitized >speech under various encodings, a project that was about ten years >ahead of its time. Did he have much day to day contact with the project you were working on? (...) >The most important technological advance after the invention of >computers, I believe, was timesharing, which made interactive >computing feasible for the first time. The basic principles of This is important. It doesn't seem that the significance of timesharing to make interactive computing possible, and then networking of remote computers possible is adequately understood or recognized. >timesharing were first stated by Prof. John McCarthy in an MIT memo >dated January 1, 1959, which led to the establishment of Project Mac. >McCarthy's interest in this scheme was motivated by his desire for >economical intereactive computing in support of his research in >artificial intelligence and was substantially influenced by the >example of SAGE, which was a special-purpose timesharing system. > Interesting. It also seemed that getting support for timesharing at MIT originally involved a struggle that McCarthy bravely took up. >The first two demonstration timesharing systems were created by Prof. >Fernando Corbato at MIT and by John McCarthy and Ed Fredkin at BBN, >both in the summer of 1962. McCarthy was invited to head Project MAC >but chose instead to move to Stanford, so MAC was headed by Prof. >Fano. > Do you know why McCarthy chose to move to Stanford? He had pioneered the work that made timesharing work possible at MIT. >ARPA was established as a result of the acute national paranoia >brought on by successes in Soviet space technology in the late 1950s >and Licklider was recruited to start the Information Processing >Technology office there. Inasmuch as Lick had ties to both MIT and >BBN and he perceived the importance of timesharing, he used his ARPA >position to fund several timesharing development projects, one of >which was Project MAC. As we know, timesharing became a very >successful multi-billion dollar industry (in spite of the fact that >IBM never figured out how to do it) and made possible a number of >later developments, one of which was ARPAnet and another was practical >display-oriented interactive computing. Any idea why IBM had such a hard time trying to do time sharing? Also, didn't the vision of a time sharing public computer utility or of an intellectual public utility grow out of the time sharing work. > >[Aside: One thing that annoys me about a couple of computer histories >that have appeared on PBS television in recent years is the pretense >that interactive computing began with personal computers and >workstations. In fact, most of the basic principles of display-based >interaction were developed on timesharing systems, which first >appeared in the mid-1960s and continued to offer services superior to >those of workstations until the mid-1980s.] > It does seem that time sharing is left out of popular accounts. (...) > >Larry Roberts came to ARPA with the idea of developing ARPAnet and was >the true father of that project. Both Taylor and Licklider recognized But even Larry gives credit to Lick as helping him to recognize the importance of the computer networking issues. Roberts writes that after speaking with Licklider, Corbato, and Perlis in Nov. 1964, he "concluded that the most important problem in the computer field before us at the time was computer networking" and that "That was a topic in wihch Licklider was very interested and his enthusiasm infected me." (See chapter 8 of Netizens: On the History and Impact of Usenet and the Internet, http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook) for further details about this issue). >the importance of computer communications between timesharing systems, >though Lick was not affiliated with ARPA at that time. Taylor >arranged for the financial support of the project that brought it into >existence. Roberts later took over as IPT head for a time, then moved >on to BBN, which had become the ARPAnet contractor (against his >recommendation, by the way). > (...) >Les Earnest (les@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 415 941-3984 Ronda au329@cleveland.freenet.edu rh120@columbia.edu -- Ronda Hauben "The Netizens: On the History and Impact of au329@cleveland.freenet.edu Usenet and the Internet http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:14:37 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Josh Hodas To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1331658998875.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.058 Status: RO Sender: Josh Hodas Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Paul Andrews wrote: > Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne > > Folks, I bought one of the first Osborne I's in Washington State. It > weighed 26 lbs. and my invoice, which I still have, was for $1795 (only > by adding an Epson MX-80 printer, paper, cable and external monitor did I > get up to $3000). Although the II was late in coming Osborne's real > problem was lack of innovation and lousy support. Kaypro came out with a > better machine on the CP/M side (before the gradual shift to IMB PC and DOS). > > Paul Andrews/Seattle Times As I recall, while the delay of the Osborne II was a serious problem, the coup-de-grace was the delays with the Osborne Executive. I can no longer remember what the features were on that box though for some reason I remember it having an reddish-amber display. Was it a DOS compatible? Also, anyone know what Adam Osborne is up to these days? It seems to me that Kaypro suffered one of the most ignominious business disasters in memory. I still remember when they announced they were missing two million dollars (that's the number that comes to mind now) in inventory. Then it turned out they were storing their inventory in a tent do to space problems at their plant! Another note mentioned the Fortune and I am racking my brains to remember the details of that machine. Was that the really pretty machine in a platinum case (perhaps running a unix variant) an an early ergonomic (ie what is now standard but in those days was very slimline) keyboard? This made me think of all the machines of the mid 80's that captured the hearts of some of us for their innovative features, but never quite took off, and noone today has ever heard of. Some that come to mind: Sage 68k A 68k based unix box. I almost bought one, it came down to a choice between it, a Lisa, and a ... Compupro S-100 Bus CP/M MP/M machines built like tanks. I owned one for several years. It was Jerry Pournelle's machine of choice for ages. Where is Bill Godbout now? Fortune Morrow First cheap fully configured (and non-S100) CP/M machine. One of the principals, Bob Dillworth is now CEO of Metricom. (I installed 2 or 3 of these for my parents and siblings over the years.) I also recall selling (I worked in computer stores through most of high-school and college, 1978-1985) an early very nicely designed DOS compatible portable. It was in a pale beige case with an amber screen and had a nice keyboard and I think it was made in Canada. My mind is coming up with the name "Orona" or "Otrona" (not to be confused with Corona who also made machines in that period). Well enough rambling. Josh ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:21:55 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: John Clark To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Vaporware" & the P-System. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <428415474314.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.047 Status: RO Sender: John Clark Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & the P-System. > > Sender: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) > Subject: Re: CM> "Vaporware" & MS-DOS. > [~snip~] > When it compiled a program to pcode it cleared the screen and put dots > across the top... they had something to do with the code generated, since > different programs produced different dots... but it was mostly feedback > to tell you it was stil alive. Thats right, i used P-system Pascal as a freshman computer sci student at CSUN in 81 ( if memory serves ). I recall it as dependable, and a good way to implement my class projects on my Apple II. My final had several thousand lines of code and used the virtual memory capabilities to swap in/out programme segments off those 140KB?? flops. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:28:37 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: T Bruce Tober To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Epson QX-16 - was:The end of CP/M. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <113382311716.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.056 Status: RO Sender: T Bruce Tober Subject: CM> Epson 16 - was:The end of CP/M. In message <164099420745.LTK.013@cpsr.org>, Bill Anderson writes >Has anyone ever stopped and consider the amount of money we have spent >upgrading and changing machines over the years. Yes, and we know where the blame falls for that. Speaking of blame, does anyone else here remember the Epson QX-16. That was my first "real" computer. I bought it from a discontinueds dealer at a really bargain price in late 84. I couldn't believe how easy it was to set up and use, especially since I had no prior experience of PC's except the trs-80 five years earlier, and which quickly found its way into my closet and then to a used office gear dealer). The blame for the defeat of the Epson QX16 was allegedly one of the SF writers (whose name I won't mention) who wrote a monthly column for one of the prestigious magazines discussed here recently. He claimed it to be only about 35% dos compatible. The machine ran dos, cp/m and its own proprietary os and suite of software, VALDOCS (VALuable DOCumentS). Valdocs included a word processor, database (addressbook), spreadsheet, comms and drawing programs. It replaced the cp/m and valdocs only QX10. it had the most wonderful keyboard I've ever had the pleasure to use and a high res green monitor. As for the SF writer's claim of 35% compatiblity with DOS. Well a few years after I bought the machine I was happily (if slorly) running WordPerfect 5.0 on it's dual floppy system. 35% compatible my left leg. tbt -- | Bruce Tober - octobersdad@reporters.net - Birmingham, England | | pgp key ID 0x9E014CE9. For CV/Resume:http://pollux.com/authors/tober.htm | | For CV/Resume and Clips: http://nwsmait.intermarket.com/nmfwc/tbt.htm | | | | "Just as the strength of the Internet is chaos, so the strength of our | | liberty depends upon the chaos and cacophony of the unfettered speech the| | First Amendment protects." -- three wise federal judges | ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:35:37 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Richard Brodie To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Why DOS won out. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2012516640136.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.051 Status: RO Sender: Richard Brodie Subject: RE: CM> Why DOS won out. Cringely's book is rife with inaccuracies, but he got this one mostly right. By the was, his TV series is just the opposite, probably the most accurate account I know of those early days at MS. I talked to Bill about this some years ago and he said he did indeed refer IBM to Digital Research, but that for whatever reason they came back to us. Tim Paterson, one heck of a programmer, had written QDOS (quick & dirty operating system), a very small and incomplete core OS for the 8088, on his own. MS bought it and, with the work of many developers including Mike Courtney (I don't think Paul was that involved, but I could be wrong), brought it up to speed. By the way, someone wrote a letter to the local Seattle paper lambasting Microsoft for "cheating" Tim P by only paying him $50K for what has become a multibillion dollar business. The writer had an image of Tim begging with a tin cup in the streets of Seattle while Bill & co. wined and dined on their riches. Tim wrote a GREAT letter to the editor in response (Paul Andrews, maybe you can dig it up from the files) saying that he in fact had been a Microsoft employee for some years now and was doing fine, thanks, but that the tin cup was a great idea and he would get one. To this day, Tim still works at MS and still has a tin cup hanging from his door which receives regular donations. Richard Brodie RBrodie@brodietech.com +1.206.688.8600 CEO, Brodie Technology Group, Inc., Bellevue, WA, USA http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie Do you know what a "meme" is? http://www.brodietech.com/rbrodie/meme.htm ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:43:29 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: PHavholm@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU (Peter Havholm) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1786879820608.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.052 Status: RO Sender: PHavholm@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU (Peter Havholm) Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. >Sender: Paul Andrews >Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne > >Folks, I bought one of the first Osborne I's in Washington State. It >weighed 26 lbs. and my invoice, which I still have, was for $1795 (only >by adding an Epson MX-80 printer, paper, cable and external monitor did I >get up to $3000). Although the II was late in coming Osborne's real >problem was lack of innovation and lousy support. Kaypro came out with a >better machine on the CP/M side (before the gradual shift to IMB PC and DOS). > >Paul > >Andrews/Seattle Times I bought Osborne I's and eventually an Executive or two for the public relations department I was then running (in the early '80s) because $1795 was a good price for the bundle: WordStar, SuperCalc, MSBasic, and what was -- except for the screen -- a very competent computer. My memory is that I could not get the same functionality (software + hardware) for a better price. Portability was not the issue. One should remember that, at that time, lots of people were buying "word processors" -- machines that could only do one thing -- for significantly more than $1795. And then you had to buy the monitor and the printer. I remember a salesman explaining how his huge and very expensive word processor had been dumbed down and its operation rigidified so that it could meet the needs of "the secretarial mind." I dunno about support. All our machines worked fine until we threw them out and bought Macs some years later because no one was willing to learn any more commands. They had certainly paid for themselves by that time. Peter Havholm Department of English The College of Wooster Wooster, OH 44691 ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:50:26 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Don Senzig" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Wayne Green, Byte, Kilobyte, and Kilobaud X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <121420383123.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.053 Status: RO Sender: "Don Senzig" Subject: Re: CM> Wayne Green, Byte, Kilobyte, and Kilobaud > Sender: "Laurence I. Press" > Subject: Re: CPSR-HISTORY digest 30 > There were also several newsletters before Byte. One published by > Carl Helmers, as Nelson menitoned, another on the 8008 by a West coast > man whose name escapes me off hand (Hal Singer?), the Bug Book guys in > Virginia had one I believe, another by Stephen Gray (?). etc. These > were followed shortly by many local club newsletters, one of which, > SCCS interface, had a short run as a national magazine. > Carl Helmers (and his brother Peter?) published "Experimenters Computer System" which outlined a 8008 based system. I think that I read that Peter was working on a BASIC interpreter for it. Carl cut whatever deal with Wayne Green and carried his ECS subscribers to Byte, which I didn't know when I first subscribed to Byte, and was surprised to receive two copies of Byte a month and none of ECS. There was also a fellow named Scelbi who sold a 8008 based system and published a number of programs in book form. Later some of these were rereleased with the programs rewritten for the 8080. The first PCC publication I came across was "What to do After You Hit Return or P.C.C.'s First Book of Computer Games", copyright 1975, printed Jan 1975. The bulk of the programs in it are for Hewlett Packard 2000F BASIC and the book bears a HP part number "HP 36000-91005". As I recall, a few years later some of these games found their way into a collection of CP/M software and had to be pulled due to no permission being granted for their inclusion. Don Senzig - http://www.execpc.com/~dsenzig Video Engineer MATA - http://www.execpc.com/~dsenzig/mata Public Access Cable Channels 14/47 in Milwaukee Wisconsin ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:57:17 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Charles Brownstein To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning, Licklider. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <181663950437.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.050 Status: RO Sender: Charles Brownstein Subject: Re: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? Educom hosted meetings on educational networking starting around 1971-72, with similar agendas as those that became common by the 80's- and with reports on the use of the ARPAnet for research and teaching. Early ones list ALL the machines (w owners and addresses, that were part of and reachable via ARPAnet. The lists are almost 2 pages long1 At one of the meetings, J.C.R. Licklider, having returned for a second tour to APRA, predicted "hundreds of thousands" of consols all around the nation by the year 2000 (or something likethat). Backers of the new "webtops" are hoping he's right! I have the book and I'll send the cite when I get back to my office next week. Also, I had in 1971, a phone link to Dartmouth's "Impress" system from Lehigh, which my students used to study statistics, math modeling and data analysis (using libraries of datasets from the US and abroad). Kept the TTY next to the counter sorter clacking. That qualify? ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 03:04:51 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "christopher f. chiesa" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of "mirror world" idea, science fiction. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2018386254890.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.054 Status: RO Sender: "christopher f. chiesa" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of "mirror world" idea? On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, David S. Bennahum wrote: > In his book "Mirror Worlds" (Oxford University Press, 1991), Yale computer > science professor David Gelernter writes of a future where we can access > minutely rendered computer-generated "mirrors" of our cities, towns, homes. > These mirrors would exist as massive databases, visually rendered, easy to > navigate and querry. It is a fantasy that's familiar (it reminds of me of > a computer game--SimCity), and I wonder, tracing the idea back, when it > first appeared in computer science. It seems the current CityScape, et. > al. ventures are possibly a crude permutation of this idea. I don't know about references in computer science, or other real-world texts, but for a cool example of what Virtual Reality COULD be -- and, I feel, someday WILL be, maybe a hundred or two years from now, or maybe next month :-) -- check out the classic (well... to ME it's a classic) trilogy that starts with "The Gentle Giants of Ganymede." I _think_ it's by James P. Hogan, though I might be wrong. In that trilogy, humanity makes contact with an alien race who essentially live out their lives connected to a full-sensory, fully-networked, negligible-response-time, etc. VR network. The experience is complete enough to be indistinguishable from _actual_ reality ("AR"). To me, this foreshadows a social issue of our future: when VR becomes indistinguishable from AR, one runs the risk that, once one "plugs in," one can NEVER BE CERTAIN, thereafter, that one has actually UNPLUGGED again! One might THINK one has unplugged, but perhaps that was only a simulation... Hogan doesn't QUITE deal with that issue, but he comes close in a roundabout way... and I've heard references to other SF stories which DO center on this issue... Chris Chiesa ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 03:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Jay Robert Hauben To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Licklider, Quotes about him, and bio-timeline. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <904097729372.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838492268.060 Status: RO Sender: Jay Robert Hauben Subject: RE: JCR Licklider I have put together an outline of JCR Licklider's life. I too would like to hear more rememberances about this important pioneer. I have appended a few quotes from written rememberances of Lick as he asked everyone to call him. JCR Licklider (1915-1990) Rememberances: 1) "J.C.R. Licklider's work affected many people, most of whom will never be aware of him. But his spirit endures in the people who knew him and who were effected by him. Few people who knew Lick will forget him." Robert F. Rosin (quoted in Computer Pioneers edited by J.A.N. Lee, p. 444) 2) "I think I first met Licklider at the recommendation of Minsky amd McCarthy, who worked together in artificial intelligence at MIT. Lick was a delightful enthusiast. Sometime after the symposia he went to work for ARPA to head up an information sytems office. In that position, he managed to convince the Department of Defense to allocate a very tidy sum to support the development of time sharing. Then, instead of despensing money around the country, he asked us to mount a concentrated effort at MIT to do the R&D and evangelize the technology worldwide, which we were glad to do. Lick was a dreamer with his feet on the ground. He knew how to inspire and he knew how to get resources. In other words, he knew how to make dreams become reality. In my estimation, no one deserves more credit than he for making good on the visions of that era." "Martin Greenberger, Technology's Marathon Man," in Educom Review, Vol 31 no 2, March/April 1996, pp. 20-26. p. 22 3) "Lick had a vision of a better way of computing.... Lick believed we could do better and, more than any other single individual, saw to it that we did." Speaking about graduate programs in comput science at "U.C. Berkeley, CMU, MIT, and Stanford.... Their success would have been impossible without the foundation put in place by Lick in 1962-64." "Lick's vision provided an extremely fruitful, long-term direction for computing research.... And he laid the foundation for graduate education in the newly created field of computer science. All users of interactive computing and every company that employs computer people owe him a great debt." Preface by Robert W. Taylor "In Memoriam: J.C.R. Licklider 1915- 1990," Digital Research Center Research Report #61, Palo Alto, CA, August 7, 1990. --------------------------------------------------------------- 1915 Born March 11 in St. Louis, Mo 193?-1937 Studied math, physics and psychology at Washington Univ., St. Louis. BA 1937 1937-1938 Masters study [?????] Washington Univ., St. Louis. MA 1938 19??-1942 Graduate study University of Rochester. Ph.D. 1942 Thesis "An Electrical Investigation of Frequency- Localization in the Auditory Cortex of the Cat." Early WWII Research Associate at Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA Studied Gestalt psychology with Wolfgang Koeller 1943-1946 Research Fellow in the Psycho-Acoutics Laboratory, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, advancing "theories of pitch perception and the intelligibility of speech" (NYT 7/3/90) "Interested in high-altitude communication, particularly in ways of compressing speech to increase the carrying power of radio and stuff like that." (Annals, 14, 2, p. 16.) Fano said, "There was some very substantial work that he did during the war .... He did something called "clipped speech"-- he invented [it]: it worked very well." (Annals) Numerous scientific papers published e.g., Jur. Acous. Soc. Am. 1946-1949 Lecturer at Harvard "mainly doing research, but also a little bit of teaching ... statistics and physiological psychology ... subjects like that" (Babbage interview) "At that time Norbert Wiener ran a circle that was very attractive to people all over Cambridge, and on Tuesday nights I went to that." (Annals, Vol 14 no 2 p.16) 1950-1957 Went as Associate Professor to Massachusetts Institute of Technology to "start up a psychology section which we hoped would eventually become a Psychology Department ... in the Electrical Engineering Department ... taught a little bit of electrical engineering." Summer '51 Participated in Project Hartwell (Navy supported research concerning underseas warfare and overseas transport) 1952-1953 Participant in Project Charles (Air Force study of air defense). "At that time, some of the more impressional ones of us were expecting there would be 50,000 Soviet bombers coming in over here." (Annals) Lead to the creation of Lincoln Laboratories. "I was trying to model how the brain works in hearing with an analog computer .... My time was divided a third time acoustics lab, a third time trying to build a psychology section ..., and one third in the Lincoln Laboratory... I really had to learn digital computing, because I couldn't do this stuff wh analog computers" (Annals) 1957 Franklin V. Taylor Award, Society of Engineering Psychologists 1957-1962 Vice President for Psycho-acoustics, Engineering Psychology and Information Systems at Bolt Beranek and Newman. 1958 President of the Acoustical Society of America 1959-1962 Did research and management work at BBN using DEC PDP-I. Worked under Council on Library Resources grant (1991-3) "I was having such a marvelous time at BBN, working on computer based library stuff and all kinds of aural radar." (Annals) Did "a little study ... on how I would spend my time. It showed that almost all my time was spent on algorithmic things that were no fun, but they were all necessary for the few heuristic things that seemed important. I had this little picture in my mind how we were goimg to get people and computers really thinking together." (Annals) 1960 Published "Man-Computer Symbiosis" 1962-1964 Directed ARPA information processing technology and behavioral sciences section (IPTO 1963-4). Encouraged research into time-sharing at SDC, Berkeley, UCLA, etc and distributeenough money to incubate the formation of computer science departments that eventually would be linked up via the ARPNET. (Funding for Project MAC started in 1963.) Fano said, Licklider was "very different from most heads of branches of the government, .... not sitting in your office waiting for proposals to arrive after sending out a brochure ... running around the country trying to generate enthusiasm." (Annals) 1967 Published "Public Television: A Program for Action." In Report of the Carnegie Commission on Educational Television. 1964-1967 Manager of Information Sciences, Systems and Applications at the Thomas J. Watson Center of International Business Machines. Lived near Mt. Kisco, NY. 1965 Published Libraries of the Future Summer 1966 Participant in EduCom Summer Study on Information Networks at Boulder Colorado planning EduNet. 1968 Published with Robert Taylor "The Computer as Communication Device" 1968-1970 Director of MIT Project MAC concurrently as Professor of Electrical Engineering. Encouraged and helped initiate the Student Information Processing Board 1971-1973 MIT(???) 1974-1975 Director of IPTO 1975-1986 Professor at MIT in the Laboratory for Computer Science 1986-1990 Professor Emeritus at MIT (1988 had 8MB RAM 150MB HD computer on his desk.) 1990 Common Wealth Award for Distinguished Service 6/26/90 Died in Arlington, MA from complications after an asthma attach. Memberships: National Academy of Sciences, Acoustic Society of America, Academy of Arts and Sciences, Association for Computing Machinery ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:12:19 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis G. Perry" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1902204384938.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.023 Sender: "Dennis G. Perry" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? I am not certain about whether anything was published about distance learning, but when I was at DARPA in 1985-1987, I was funding an effort to do multi-casting on the Arpanet and we were wanting to do a demonstration of training to multiple sites. This effort led to what we now see in the Internet as the MBONE and related broadcasts. dennis ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? Author: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM at INTERNET Date: 7/25/96 7:41 AM Sender: "Rob Slade, doting grandpa of Ryan & Trevor" Subject: RE: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning? >Sender: "Richard J. Smith" > >Out of curiosity, I'd like to know if anyone on this list >knows of an early usage of the Internet for distance >education. I can only give you negative information. In 1985, I was responsible for setting up the telecommunications for the World Logo Conference. So far as I have been able to determine, this was the first fully integrated on-site/ online conference using static data files, email, and real time/chat functions to involve offsite and onsite participants in the same sessions. My report on the conference, "Online from Paradise" was published in Teleconferencing V and IPCC '87. (All of which is by the way, because it happened on Compu$pend.) In reworking the paper for the more general topic of training, I did an ERIC search on everything I could think of that potentially related to computer mediated communications in education. Of the 32 references I eventually found, none were based on use of the Internet. So, unless someone can come up with a really hidden reference, nothing was *published* prior to 1987. However, I *do* know that the husband/SO of an English instructor at SFU was acting as "poet in non-residence" to a public school English class. The kids were middle school level, as I recall. (I had peripheral contact with the project, although I was not formally involved.) This was the 1987/88 school year. During that term an extension course from SFU was also announced that was to use email and fax. ====================== roberts@decus.ca rslade@vcn.bc.ca slade@freenet.victoria.bc.ca link to virus, book info at http://www.freenet.victoria.bc.ca/techrev/rms.html Author "Robert Slade's Guide to Computer Viruses" 0-387-94663-2 (800-SPRINGER) ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:26:37 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Ross To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1544165819795.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.024 Sender: Ross Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution > I've heard of some unusual and now-abandoned ways of putting together > computer hardware: my father tells me that someone really built a > computer that used decimal memory rather than binary storage [...] > Did someone really try decimal memory? ENIAC had decimal memory, I seem to recall. There's no end of books on the subject... .----------Ross Hamilton, PhD Student in the History of Computing-------. | http://quartz.dcs.warwick.ac.uk:8080/ | mailto:ross@dcs.warwick.ac.uk | | Department of Computer Science, | 12 Newbold Place, Leamington | | Uni. of Warwick, Coventry, CV4 7AL | Spa, Warwks, CV32 4HR, UK | `----------------- Office: 01203 528043 | Home: 01926 886146 -----------' ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:35:57 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "keith reid-green" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <948406357355.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.045 Sender: "keith reid-green" Subject: re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution >From KReid-Green@ets.org Subject:: Dead ends of hardware evolution ""Oh the IBM 650 had a memory quite nifty on a drum revolving swiftly and it's good enough for me", and also one I don't completely recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know." The IBM 650 was IBM's first generation bread-and-butter machine. It had a drum instead of a disk because not only hadn't disks been invented yet, but neither had random-access memory (1954.) Well, it's not fair to say that random access memory wasn't invented yet, but it certainly wasn't widely used. The first 650's had 1,000 ten-digit words on the drum (2,000 words in later models) and of course the program was executed from the drum, so programmers had to write their programs so as to take advantage of drum revolutions. This was possible because the instructions had two addresses--the first was the data address and the second was the drum address of the next instruction. If the program was written sequentially, then one instruction per rev was the best you could get--12,500 instructions per minute! The display console of this machine showed the ten digits of an instruction in bi-quinary code. One of two lights marked 0 and 5 had to be lit, and one of five others marked 0,1,2,3,4. Input and output were punched cards. The output had to be taken to a tabulator like the IBM 407 to be printed. (There's more, but I don't want to write too much.) Another decimal machine (I liked it a lot) was the IBM 7070. It was a second generation machine, but it was restricted to a random access memory of 10,000 ten-digit words. The instruction set was very powerful and very large--there were about 200 instructions, with lots of options in the ways some instructions could be used. The 7070 was available in 1960 and was pretty much obsolete by 1965 when the IBM 360 series came on the market. I worked on both these machines as a programmer and the above is all recalled from memory and could be less than perfectly accurate. But if anybody wants more detail I have Principles of Operation manuals for both machines at home, along with an IBM 704 manual. Keith Reid-Green Educational Testing Service ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:44:02 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <90407334840.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.039 Sender: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution Jenny: the IBM 1620 used decimal data storage and used a look-up table to implement addition and multiplication. There's an excellent book on the 1620 by Daniel N. Leeson and Donald L. Dimitry. It was printed in 1962, LOC catalog number 62-19796. As for drums, it's much easier to design a recording unit where all the tracks are the same length. The first audio recordings were also made on drums. It's not as cost-effective: they're harder to handle and they require a lot more sheer physical hardware... but until solid state memory got cheap enough it was quite common to have relatively fast memory on a fixed-head or multiple-moving-head drum, between the very expensive electronic memory and the slower but cheaper disks and tapes. That's why the swap device on early UNIX systems was called "/dev/drum". If you want to ponder *really* esoteric stuff, do some research on CRT and mercury delay line memory. Pretty much anything that can change state quickly enough and retain that new state for a while has been used for memory. I remember reading a Scientific American article on the use of tiny amplifiers and ultrasonic transducers etched onto the surface of a silicon wafer, storing information as sound waves in the surface of the silicon. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:50:54 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: John Oliver To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1431362520253.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.042 Sender: John Oliver Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution At 01:29 AM 7/26/96 -0700, you wrote: >I've heard of some unusual and now-abandoned ways of putting together >computer hardware: my father tells me that someone really built a >computer that used decimal memory rather than binary storage, and >another filk tune (to the tune of "Old Time Religion") refers to two >more. "Oh the IBM 650 had a memory quite nifty on a drum revolving >swiftly and it's good enough for me", and also one I don't completely >recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame >us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? >Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really >try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. > Jenny Could be the same machine. The 650 was actually "bi-quinary" 2-5 storage but the effect was decimal. Memory was a rotating drum which could be thought of as 20 parallel loops of tape with 20 read/write heads. Each track allowed 100 10-digit decimal numbers. The instructions contained the usual info plus the address of the next instruction (two addresses for a branch). To avoid latency, optimum programming required figuring how far the drum would rotate while an instruction was being executed, and the putting the next instruction at a location that would be coming under the heads at that time. I programmed on a large tab sheet where I literally mapped the entire memory space. Two tracks were special ... input from the card reader showed up in 80 locations on the input track, output to the card punch came from the output track. I programmed this sucker in ML and SOAP (Symbolic Optimized Assembly Program). It was a great intro ... lots of archane skill development. I still remember going to the machine room, tugging my forelock, and handing the card deck to the priest (who would frequently make motions suggesting an iminent "floor shuffle"). I would return the next day to see whether the machine had stayed up the necessary 6 hours to run my code (which would run in a fraction of a second on my ThinkPad today). The 650 used vacuum tubes of course and if the power failed, there was great panic as the acolytes removed the enclosure in hopes of releasing enough heat to avoid "meltdown". Ah yes ... those were the days ... ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Stephen Wolff To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <367713757722.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.037 Sender: Stephen Wolff Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution > Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really > try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. I did my first computing on a 650. Yes, it had a 2000 word drum memory; IBM hadn't discovered disks yet. The internal number representation was indeed decimal, with the lofty name "biquinary": think of numbering your fingers from 0 to 9; biquinary representation is basically "which finger? which hand?" The first language I used was "Bell I", an interpretive 3-address language for the 650, written at Bell Labs. Later I graduated to Assembly language with the marvelous SOAP (Storage Optimization Assembly Program). SOAP knew the execution times of all the machine's commands, and laid out your assembly code on the drum so that when an instruction had completed, the next instruction would just be coming up under the read heads; it made an **enormous** difference over simply laying the instructions out sequentially on the drum. We always envied the folks who were allowed to go up to NYU and run on the 704 which, according to legend of the time, would crash unless its operating temperature was kept correct by propping open its cabinet's back door with a copy of "Methoden der Mathematische Physik". -s ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <21450533120.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.025 Sender: thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution J.WalkerLiddell wrote: >What machine couldn't add? >Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really >try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. The IBM 1620 was known as CADET: Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try. It, and IBM's 1401 and 7070 all used some kind of decimal memory. The 1620 and 7070 had fixed size words that could store 10 decimal digits and a sign: characters were encoded as pairs of digits. The 1401 used variable-sized fields. Each memory position had seven bits, BA8421M, where the M was called the "word mark," and if on indicated the end of a "word." Each memory position in the 1401 could hold either a digit or a letter. I used all three of these machines in the 60s. For more information, see http://www.best.com/~thvv/1401s.html http://www.best.com/~thvv/7070.html ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:12:41 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of NEXIS, RECON. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <358112028560.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.044 Sender: "Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols" Subject: CM> Origins of NEXIS? On 26 Jul 96 at 1:49, Peter D. Junger wrote: > Our Moderator writes: > > : [Moderator's Note: LEXIS-NEXIS may be one of the oldest, and most robust, > : examples of an online database accessible from myriad points across the > : globe. Actually, I believe the oldest online information resource of this sort was NASA's RECON system. While it wasn't, and still isn't, a publicly accessible online DBMS, even from the early days it was widely available in NASA and space science circles. RECON got kicked on, I believe, my RECON manual is missing, in the middle 70s. The company that built it then took the lessons learned from RECON and built a system called DIALOG--one that I'm sure we all know. Steven Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols sjvn@vna1.com http://www.access.digex.net/~sjvn/vna.html QOTD: "No, you have a job, you don't work for a living, I'm a freelancer, I _work_ for my living."--sjvn ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:19:35 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Michael R. Williams" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <465157980974.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838653403.008 Sender: "Michael R. Williams" Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution >Subject: Dead ends of hardware evolution > my father tells me that someone really built a >computer that used decimal memory rather than binary storage, and >another filk tune (to the tune of "Old Time Religion") refers to two >more. "Oh the IBM 650 had a memory quite nifty on a drum revolving >swiftly and it's good enough for me", and also one I don't completely >recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame >us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? >Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really >try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. Oh my, it must be nice to be young enough not to have had to work on these old machines!!!! (The rest of you old-timers can get back to work while I try to explain to Jenny what happened...) The IBM 650 was a machine that was developed in the 1950s (before you were born) as an "inexpensive" machine for smaller firms and universities. Memory was once VERY expensive (in the 50s you couldn't get more than a few thousand words of memory no matter how much you were willing to pay because the addressing schemes would simply not deal with it). In order to keep the cost down, the IBM 650 had all its memory on a magnetic drum (ie it had nothing like what we would call RAM today). Both instructions and data were stored on the drum and you had to wait until the next instruction was under the read head before you could execute it. This made it rather SLOW - but it did work and a lot of the "old-timers" (like your father, I suspect) got their start on that machine. The reason for no disk is that disks were not available - experiments had been done with disks as early as about 1950 (perhaps even a little earlier) but they were not a viable item until IBM really got the bugs out of them much later in the 50's whe tey developed them for storage on the STRETCH (IBM 7030) computer. (if any of you old timers are still reading, yes I do know about the 650 RAMAC disks - but these were special case items and not really the disks that Jenny was meaning) As to machine that had decimal memory - well that was often the case - even today we have decimal memory (ie a byte - or half a byte - is really a decimal digit - or at least capable of storing a decimal digit). The first UNIVACs were essentially decimal storage (implemented by mercury delay lines - don't ask, you will never believe what they were!) as were many other machines. Machines that couldn't add - sure lots of them. One of the most famous was the IBM 1620 (really the successor of the 650 as an inexpensive machine for smaller groups, but this time produced in the early 60s). In order to keep the cost down it didn't have an arithmetic unit (at leas the model I didn't, I think maybe the model II did, but I can't really remember now - must be getting old). Instead it had a set of "tables" stored in memory between locations 100- 400 (that was a decimal memory machine, so each location could store a decimal digit). When ever it had to add (or subtract, multiply or divide) a pair of numbers, it simply took the digits from each pair of numbers and used them to address into these tables to find the answer (and any carry that might be needed). for example if you had to add 5+3 it would look in (for example, my memory is failing me for exact detail again) memory location 153 to find the sum (8) and use that in building up the answer digit by digit. This scheme had a lot of good uses - you could change the tables yourself to get octal or hexadecimal arithmetic out of an ordinary add instruction (as long as you remembered to change them back again before anything else was done on the machine. I hope this helps in giving you some idea of what it was like back then - ask some more and perhaps we can enlighten a lot of other people as well. Mike Williams --------------------------------------------------- Dr. Michael R. Williams Editor-in-Chief, Annals of the History of Computing Department of Computer Science University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta Canada T2N 1N4 Ph: (403) 220-6781 Fax: (403) 284-4707 email: williams@cpsc.ucalgary.ca ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: (Peter Capek) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Drums revolving swiftly, and machines that can't add X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <36891097608.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838653403.001 Sender: (Peter Capek) Subject: Drums revolving swiftly, and machines that can't add Jenny writes: > more. "Oh the IBM 650 had a memory quite nifty on a drum revolving > swiftly and it's good enough for me", and also one I don't completely > recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame > us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? > Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really > try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. More than you ever wanted to know about these machines... The IBM 650 did indeed use a 2000 word drum (4000 words was an option) for its "main storage" The drum spun at 12500 RPM. Each word was 10 decimal digits plus a sign. I believe it was, as so many such things are, the result of cost considerations. Core memory in that era (the 650 was first delivered in late 1954, but the goodness of its design is supported by the fact that it was a remarkably successful product which continued to be manufactured until 1962; almost 2000 were made). Core memory in those days was very expensive. In the 650, core was an option with a very specific purpose: to buffer data transfer operations between the drum and tape drives. Because the two devices operated at different speeds, core was necessary to avoid losing data during the transfer. So reading a tape consisted of reading a record into core memory, and then transferring core memory to drum. Perhaps it was possible to operated on the data directly in the core memory; I think so, but I'm not certain. An interesting aspect of the 650 is that the performance of a program was very dependent on where its instructions were placed on the drum. Each instruction included the location of the instruction to be executed next. So "optimizing" a program consisted of placing instructions in such a way that the program didn't have to wait a lot for the drum to turn to fetch the next instruction. SOAP, the Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program was an assembler which automated this function. In the early 60s, IBM made a machine called the 1620, and I think that's the one referred to as an ignoramus. It had core memory, but no real arithmetic unit. It performed arithmetic by using a table stored at reserved locations in memory. It formed an address by concatentating the table address with the two digits to be added and looking at that location in memory to find the sum or product of the two digits. Division was done entirely in software, and I believe subtraction was done using the same table as for addition, but taking advantage of the fact that each memory location stored two digits, plus an extra bit which was used to indicate a carry. (This is all from memory, and it has been many years..) The thing most people know about this machine who know about it at all is that its code name was CADET: Can't add - doesn't even try. Peter Capek ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:36:46 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "christopher f. chiesa" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1391977105.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.046 Sender: "christopher f. chiesa" Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, Joshua S. Hodas wrote: > >Sender: LESPEA@muze.com (Leslie Pearson) > >Subject: Early On-Line Services > > > >I also recently > >found some documents for a service called People Link/Plink that was > >active in the mid 1980's. Don't know whether Plink is still active, but a whole mass of Amiga users migrated OFF of Plink onto Portal (which was at that time my sole ISP) around early-to-mid-1988 if I recall correctly. They're still active, now on Portal. > local Telenet and Tymenet (do they still exist) point-of-presence. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes, they do. I still occasionally use Telenet (now called SprintNet) to access Portal, and I believe on the rare occasions when I de-mothball my CompuServe account I access it through Tymnet. > You > would first get a prompt from the POP and then type a command to connect > to the source (which was in Maclean, Virginia). Yep. SprintNet, at least, still works that way. Ill-documented, no line-editing, no error messages (just a "?" mark if you mis-type something). Lovely. Chris Chiesa ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:43:47 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "christopher f. chiesa" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <564789747426.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.047 Sender: "christopher f. chiesa" Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, Jeremy Grodberg wrote: > Leslie Pearson wrote: > > > >Does anyone remember the early On-Line services such as the Source? > > The only one I remember was Portal, which seemed like a really good > deal. At the time I signed up for Portal, the deal was VERY good: $19.95 a month "base rate," plus something like $0.05/Kbyte/month for stored e-mail (at that time, and for a few years afterward, you didn't have personal "files" per se); connect charges applied, I think, if you came in via modem, but if you came in via SprintNet, as I did, Portal didn't charge you for con- nect time -- but SprintNet did! The "deal" to get, then, was SprintNet's "PC Pursuit" program, which allowed individuals to use SprintNet's nation- wide (worldwide?) data network during its "off-peak" hours: 6PM-7AM week- days, and all day weekends and certain holidays, for a FLAT FEE with NO LIMIT on connect-time. I knew several people who spent upwards of 200 (yes, TWO HUNDRED) hours a month connected to Portal. Unfortunately, about a month after I signed up, Portal set an industry precedent by instituting a connect-time charge that did what no other charge in history had previously done: it got MORE expensive per hour, the MORE time you used! That killed off the majority of Portal "big-timers" all at once and totally changed the online ambiance there. Not to mention ticking ME off for having not told me a month earlier that there was a change in the works that might have made Portal less attractive in the first place... Chris Chiesa ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:50:28 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Kip Crosby, CHAC" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> IBM 1620, 650, CADET. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2140986186827.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.041 Sender: "Kip Crosby, CHAC" Subject: Re: CPSR-HISTORY digest 36 >I've heard of some unusual and now-abandoned ways of putting together >computer hardware:.... What machine couldn't add? >Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? Did someone really >try decimal memory? Curious to hear whatever people know. > Jenny The IBM 1620 couldn't add "natively;" it used lookup tables. Its IBM internal codename, CADET, was widely taken as an acronym for Can't Add Doesn't Even Try. The 650 had a drum instead of a disk because there weren't disks yet. The first hard disk, the IBM RAMAC or 305, was developed circa 1953 and first sold in 1956. ENIAC (at least) had decimal memory, with ring-tail adders.\ __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/chac/ Computer History Association of California ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Nelson Winkless To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> SCCS etc... X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2095902334240.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838649919.000 Sender: Nelson Winkless Subject: CM: SCCS etc... Well, now that Larry Press has the ball rolling on the Southern California Computer Society (SCCS) of old... In the Fall of 1976, David Bunnell and I went from Albuquerque to L.A. to attend an SCCS meeting, and see what we could find of interest to Personal Computing Magazine. I think the special occasion was that Bob Marsh of Processor Technology was showing a prototype of the SOL computer. The meeting was in the auditorium of a junior high school, and the crowd was big. Several hundred people were there, the most distinctive of whom was an elderly skinny guy who was identified to me as the retired technical genius behind Consolidated Electrodynamics. He sat up in one of the front rows, and participated actively in the meeting. The thing that made him so distinctive was that he was wearing tights, a belted tunic, and a beret. He seemed just right for a computer society in Southern California. A number of vendors set up tables in the lobby of the auditorium, and an active bazaar got going after the meeting. Lore (La Funelle) Harp and Carole Ely were selling circuit cards out of a brown paper grocery bag over a card table they had brought with them. Within an hour on a Saturday morning they sold a couple of thousand dollars worth of stuff. Then they folded the card table and the bag, and went home. In that hour it became clear to me that this personal computer notion was economically non-trivial. I don't know whether Carole and Lore had yet officially formed Vector Graphics, which company grew out of this activity, and flourished for a few years. (Carole and husband Bob Wickham are in Santa Fe these days, and I hear from Bob now and again.) Does SCCS yet live? --Nels ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nelson Winkless Email: correspo@swcp.com ABQ Communications Corporation Voice: 505-897-0822 P.O. Box 1432 Fax: 505-898-6525 Corrales NM 87048 USA Website: http://www.swcp.com/correspo ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:04:15 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Hart" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Early On-Line Services X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1815170597654.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.043 Sender: "Michael S. Hart" Subject: Re: CM> Early On-Line Services I remember the Source. . .and the program called Re-Source made to beat the price they charged by slowing you down on all those stupid menus. I once won a bet with our Atari Computer Club that it must cost at least $10 to work your way through the menus for a movie review. . .ANY movie review. . .just one. It ended up $11.40, so I won the bet, but we lost the $11. This was in the days when they charged by the minute, when it was nearly impossible to cruise through more than about one menu per minute. . . . I won't comment. . .yet. . .about what kind of deal it was to make a system work slowly on that basis. Thanks! ============================================= Michael S. Hart, Professor of Electronic Text Executive Director of Project Gutenberg Etext Benedictine University, Lisle, IL 60532-0900 No official connection to U of Illinois--UIUC Permanent Internet Address!!! hart@pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:10:56 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: asr@geom.umn.edu To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Plywood computing...Danny Hillis' Tinkertoy Computer? X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <139495832155.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838648189.040 Sender: asr@geom.umn.edu Subject: Re: CM> Plywood computing. > That also reminds me of a real book I owned for a while, called "how to > build a working digital computer" -- out of things like wood, screws, > paper clips, and light bulbs. (There was even a memory drum made out of > an oatmeal can, I kid you not.) I was very excited to find this book, and > had visions of constructing a clattering monstrosity that, if nothing > else, might be able to "add 2 and 3 to get 5," that sort of thing. What about Danny Hillis' tinkertoy computer? Can anyone give an authoritative account of Hillis' project? All I know is that he (and possibly others) built a computer out of tinkertoys to show the universal nature of computation, and to show that it could be done. .. Adam Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:17:33 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Suzanne M. Johnson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> "Collaborative Research Community": another pointer. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1851996765452.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838649919.002 Sender: "Suzanne M. Johnson" Subject: "Collaborative Research Community": another pointer to Regarding the origin of "Virtual Community" and early uses of computer assisted learning: A paper titled "Networking and a Collaborative Research Community: a Case Study Using the DENDRAL Programs", appeared in Computer Networking and Chemistry, ACS Symposium Series, #19; and was presented at an ACS (American Chemical Society) meeting in 1975. This group of authors (I was one of them), all either worked on the DENDRAL Project (very early AI), or for SUMEX (Stanford University Medical Experimental Computer) the computer that hosted the Dendral effort. Sumex was located at Stanford and was connected to the Arpanet. In the paper we describe the variety of remote development projects that used Sumex, and report the somewhat unexpected feedback from all the projects regarding the utility of the various communication enhancing capabilities available to the research groups and their worldwide users. We were using Tenex on SUMEX, and with the use of LINK and ADVISE commands could fairly regularly conduct remote training for individual users on complex software, aided by a phone connection. (There have been many times since that I have wished to have access to similar capability...LINK would blend the two terminal i/o streams so each user could see what the other was typing...ADVISE would allow the advisor to provide command input to the program being run by the advisee). I'd like to echo the comment made by another contributor regarding looking beyond the time frame of the "personal computer" for the source of major accomplishments and contributions to collaborative computing. The PC was designed to be a disconnected desktop machine. Only relatively recently did it learn how to reach out and touch something. ...and sitting here on my Win95 Pentium system, I do sometimes wonder if I really am better off than I was in those early Tenex days. Suzanne __________________________________________________ Suzanne M. Johnson Sunnyvale, California johnson@rahul.net ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:09:45 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Bill Selmeier To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1825250238583.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.019 Sender: Bill Selmeier Subject: Re: CM> Dead ends of hardware evolution >Sender: /S=J.WALKERLIDDELL/OU1=S26L07A/AD=ATTMAIL/C=US@mhs-fswa.attmail.com >Subject: Dead ends of hardware evolution >I've heard of some unusual and now-abandoned ways of putting together >computer hardware... I started my business career with Procter&Gamble. They had one of those 650 monstor machines. P&G was trying to push the state of the art in the early '60s and a year or so before I got there they tried to tune the Toilet Goods Manufacturing operation by simulating it on the 650 in real time. Even in those days they wanted to be able to test out different operational choices on a computer before making the change in the plant. They cranked up the simulation and after 24 hours the computer had actually simulated almost 23 hours of them. :) In those days P&G was trying a lot of automation early. > and also one I don't completely >recall: "Oh the _______ is famous, couldn't add so who could blame >us when we called it ignoramus, ...". What machine couldn't add? Your thinking of the IBM 1620 unofficially the "CADET" = Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try. It looked all the anwsers up in tables because that was faster than the addition circuits. Another early '60s business machine. Pre IBM 360 machines were either Business or Scientific meaning they had floating point circuits. >Why did the 650 have a drum instead of a disk? It looked like a disk to me. A really big disk:) probably 36-48 inches in diameter and the stack of platters were over.5 inch apart and stood 3+feet tall. Bill Selmeier bills@aimnet.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:23:06 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: bill@atd.co.za (William Bowles) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> PLATO in South Africa. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1211304804384.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.033 Sender: bill@atd.co.za (William Bowles) Subject: Re: CPSR-HISTORY digest 37 >I think that distance learning on the Net precedes the >Internet as we know it by many years. The first real >system was PLATO, developed at U.Illinois in the >late '60s and marketed by Control Data for ``computer- >aided instruction.'' In 1976 this was priced at >$5 million for the software + $6K per terminal. Essick >and Kolstad elaborated the Illinois software to produce >``notes,'' announced at the Santa Monica USENIX in >January 1983. An interesting aside to the PLATO project is that it was commissioned by the US Armed Forces for teaching soldiers but it involved a sophisticated tracking system which when Congress learned of its implications, promptly threw it out as a dangerous 'Big Brother' system! When Control Data realised that it had a multi-million dollar boondoggle on its hands, it sold it to the South African Govt! The Apartheid regime started to install it in the Black school system as a method of tracking students and their activities (both educational and political) and even went as far as linking it to Employment Centres so that for example, when a Black student who was politically active finally left school and applied for a job through an Employment Centre, his/her activities were there in the file and any activists of course, couldn't get jobs. The Apartheid regime installed it in the Orange Free State and had plans to use it nationwide but I don't think it got that far. It had to use the teachers in the school system as a source of information on the students, effectively using the teachers as spies. Bill +----------------------------------------------------+ + All Things Digital (Pty) Ltd - Internet Architects + + 158 Jan Smuts Av, Rosebank 2196 South Africa + + Tel: +2711-788-0263 Fax: +2711-788-0210 + + Cel: +2782-566-3902 Email: support@atd.co.za + + http://www.atd.co.za + +----------------------------------------------------+ ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:28:07 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "christopher f. chiesa" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> City-oriented on-line services, Toronto kiosks. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1650886245686.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.030 Sender: "christopher f. chiesa" Subject: Re: CM> City-oriented on-line services, Minitel. > > I am wondering if there are earlier examples of on-line services > > creating city-wide databases of this sort, and if so does anyone recall > > them? Were they successes, flops? I have no idea how it was done, nor whether an "online service" was involved, but I recall visiting Toronto, Ontario, Canada around 1983 or 84 and seeing interactive "city info" kiosks. These things were everywhere -- in hotel lobbies, on the floor in shopping malls, even out on the streets. They had touch screens and color displays, and presented all manner of information about the city of Toronto -- its geography, attractions, bus and subway routes and schedules, etc. -- in low-res object-style graphics (a picture of a building would be built up of overlaid solid rectangles, etc., rather than appearing line-by-line in "raster" format). Interestingly, the first selection in the system was "Toronto or San Francisco." And yes, you COULD select "San Francisco" and view equally in-depth information about THAT city! A year or two later I happened to visit relatives in SF, and found the "OTHER end" of that kiosk system -- and was, of course, able to view information about Toronto! So does anybody else recall this system, or perhaps have actual stories of involvement with it? I was in my early 20s and thought this was a pretty neat system, but it disappeared from Toronto so evidently "never caught on..." Chris Chiesa ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:33:13 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Laurence I. Press" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> early interactive games X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1816854359992.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.035 Sender: "Laurence I. Press" Subject: early interactive games > Sender: "keith reid-green" > Subject: re: Earliest interactive computer game > > Yesterday, somebody asked about the earliest interactive computer game. > There was a tic-tac-toe game on the IBM 704 where I worked in 1957. The > player played against the computer, using two of six sense switches to > denote the row and column to play in. The computer then made its play, and > results were displayed on a CRT (cathode-ray tube). Cristopher Strachey, who wrote an oft-referenced pre-timesharing paper that outlined a system for several programmers debugging at the same time, wrote an interactive chess (checkers ?) program for one of the English research machines during the 1950s. It was written up in the Annals of the History of Computing, but I don't have the reference off hand. Art Samules' checkers program that learned and beat Samuels was described in the IBM journal of R&D around 1959. (The year of Strachey's tss precursor paper). Lar ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:37:51 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: FAFNIR@delphi.com To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning, PLATO. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1093306867271.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.031 Sender: FAFNIR@delphi.com Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learnin I recall Stu Umpleby having a significant role in putting PLATO together. He spent at least one summer at the Institute for the Future in the early 70's with documentation on PLATO. I remember considerable work being done on making the teleconferencing capability of DARPANET more user friendly to non-technically-oriented end users in the 72-74 period. Does learning from the exchange of data transmitted during teleconferences qualify as "distance learning?" If so, then there was "distance learning" back then.... Rick Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service New York University and Fafnir Associates. Ltd. Fafnir@Delphi.com Chaos@usa.pipeline.com ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:42:57 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Murphy@SBAServ.SBA.UConn.Edu (Murph Sewall) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Article on origins of "vaporware." X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <2026732956576.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.037 Sender: Murphy@SBAServ.SBA.UConn.Edu (Murph Sewall) Subject: Re: Pointer to article on origins of "vaporware." On 7/26/96 2:00 AM, Peter Capek wrote: >According to > > http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art26.htm > >the term "vaporware" was coined to describe OVATION, a product announced in >1983 and never shipped. That's ALL the article has to say on the subject; I regard this assertion as flimsy evidence because it's undocumented. For instance, how long after Ovation was announced did someone (who, where, and on what date) refer to it as "vaporware." The earliest use that I can document was by an Atari executive quoted in the Wall Street Journal in late 1983 (December?) or early 1984 (probably January) in reference to the much ballyhood but not officially announced IBM "Peanut" (eventually marketed as the IBM PCjr). Somewhere there probably is an earlier example of the use of the term, but the Byte claim is too vague. My guess is that more than one person thought of it without knowing about others; so, several "firsts" are possible. /s Murphy A. Sewall (860) 486-2489 voice Professor of Marketing (860) 456-7725 fax http://mktg.sba.uconn.edu/MKT/Faculty/Sewall.html ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & other candidates. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <962597322868.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.036 Sender: peter@baileynm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. > This > made me think of all the machines of > the mid 80's that captured the hearts of some of us for > their innovative features, but never quite took off, > and noone today has ever heard of. HP Integral: UNIX in a lunchbox in 1984! Had a ROM-based root file system, booted in a snap, and automatically mounted floppies. HP didn't trust portable hard disks. I wish they'd do something like this in a laptop. 68000, amber screen, custom window system bearing kinship to HP's DOS-based "PAM" menu system. AT&T 7300/3b1: AT&T's personal computer. UNIX, telephony support, very fast little window system with the ability to write window applications in shell scripts (an ancestor of WKSH?). 68010, green screen, detached keyboard that lived on a ledge in front of the floppy drive. ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:52:40 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Mike O'Brien" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning, PLATO. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <1239191031159.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.034 Sender: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: CM> Origins of Net for distance learning, PLATO. Peter Salus writes: > I think that distance learning on the Net precedes the > Internet as we know it by many years. The first real > system was PLATO, developed at U.Illinois in the > late '60s and marketed by Control Data for ``computer- > aided instruction.'' ... > See Hiltz & Turoff (1978, 1993); H.J. Peters in Computer Decisions > 8 (1976); J.S. Quarterman, The Matrix (1990; and P.H. Salus, > Casting the Net (1995). Or see me. I was a user of PLATO III, and helped install and run the first PLATO IV remote site at what is now the University of Illinois at Chicago. PLATO IV is the version of PLATO with which most people are familiar. I've got a load of memories of this particular grand experiment stored away if anyone is interested. [Moderator's Note: I think we are; please send them.] Mike O'Brien ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:57:18 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Bill Anderson" To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro, Fortune computer. X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <582407236437.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.038 Sender: "Bill Anderson" Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. On Jul 27, 2:14am, Josh Hodas wrote: > Subject: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. > > Sender: Josh Hodas > Subject: Re: CM> Vaproware & the Osborne, Kaypro. > > > > As I recall, while the delay of the Osborne II was a serious > problem, the coup-de-grace was the delays with the Osborne Executive. > I can no longer remember what the features were on that box > though for some reason I remember it having an reddish-amber display. > Was it a DOS compatible? The OSborne II was pre-announced, which Osborne I sales to a sliding halt. The real disaster was the inventory in parts that were ordered for the Osborne I to fullfil orders that were canceled. Osborne II sales met aa similar fate when the Osborne Executive was announced. With no income and a huge inventory, the company disappeared overnight. > > Also, anyone know what Adam Osborne is up to these days? > If I remember correctly, he continued on with Osborne books. However, I am not totally sure. > Another note mentioned the Fortune and I am racking my > brains to remember the details of that machine. Was that the > really pretty machine in a platinum case (perhaps running > a unix variant) an an early ergonomic (ie what is now standard but > in those days was very slimline) keyboard? This > made me think of all the machines of > the mid 80's that captured the hearts of some of us for > their innovative features, but never quite took off, > and noone today has ever heard of. Since I worked as a Product Line Engineering Manager at Fortune, I remember the product very well. It was a UNIX based machine targeted to the OEM market, and VARs that worked with larger customers. Based on the Motorola 68000, it ran ForPro a version of Unix that contained elements of Version 7, System 3, and BSD 4.2. ForPro was one of the first, if not the first, international version of UNIX. We built English, French, German, and Spanish versions. A European distributor created the string files for an Italian version. When we release a new version of the OS, one build created every language version for every hardware platform supported. The biggest customers in the US were Ford, and Southern Bell. In France, it was the standard machine in every French postoffice. I loved the Fortune keyboards because they were designed to compete in the high-end word processing market. The word processor looked and acted much like Wang's word processor. In 1987, the company was bought my SMC, because of its excess manufacturing capability. The company continued for several more years before disappearing. Besides its multi-lingual capability, the Fortune had a great software maintenance interface, with capabilities to install, backup, and uninstall any software product. By uninstall, I mean the system returned to the same state it was before the product was installed. Even the inode count had to be the same. In 1984, ForPro supported sockets with a token ring network. There were also models based on the 68010 and 68020. Fortune's biggest mistake was that it never entered the workstation market. With dynamically configured kernel, it would have made a great workstation. I would like to know what happened to Dave Olson and the other engineers that worked at Fortune. We had a great development team and over the years, I have lost contact with them. Bill Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 02:02:05 -0700 Reply-To: cpsr-history@Sunnyside.COM Originator: cpsr-history@cpsr.org Sender: listserv-reply-errors@Sunnyside.COM Precedence: bulk From: Les Earnest To: "Multiple recipients of list cpsr-history@cpsr.org" Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider X-Listprocessor-Version: 9.1 -- List Server by Sunnyside Computing, Inc. X-Comment: Discussion of history of computing X-Info: For listserv info write to listserv@cpsr.org with message HELP X-Message-Id: <373833255723.LTK.013@cpsr.org> X-UIDL: 838822998.040 Sender: Les Earnest Subject: CM> J.C.R. Licklider Earlier I said: >Licklider was a great guy and an inspiration to work with. Ronda Hauben asks: Les, why do you say Licklider was an inspiration to work with? His approach to any issue was entirely open and almost playful, but he focused on what he was trying to accomplish and systematically discarded approaches that looked unpromising. He was especially good at engaging and motivating those who worked with him. >He was indeed very influential, mostly through his recognition and support >of inventions by others, but he did not direct Project MAC nor was he >directly involved in starting ARPAnet, though he created the >environment that made it possible. Do you have any sense of what guided him to determine what to support? He always had long range goals in mind and supported those things that he thought would contribute to achieving them. Enhancing individual productivity and the quality of life through the use of computers was high on his agenda, I believe. [. . .] Also, the vision described at the end of the paper "The Computer as A Device"(Science and Technology, April 1968), that Licklider wrote with Robert Taylor raised the crucial question in developing computer networking as "Will `to be on line' be a privilege or a right? " They said that the impact of computer networking on society would rest on the resolution of this question. That the impact would be good if all would have the advantage, and bad if computer networking weren't made available. This is still a crucial issue that hasn't been enough considered and taken into account, at least with respect to the policy that the U.S. is currently developing on access to computer networking for the U.S. population. Doesn't look very crucial to me -- between home computers and public facilities such as terminals in public libraries it is already a right for much of the U.S. population and is destined to be treated much like the ubiquitous telephone. >I first met Lick in 1949 when he gave me my first summer job as an >undergraduate. He was spending the summer at the Naval Electronics >Lab in San Diego, experimenting with the intelligibility of digitized >speech under various encodings, a project that was about ten years >ahead of its time. Did he have much day to day contact with the project you were working on? Yes -- I was working primarily as a guinea pig, attempting to understand garbled speech produced by his infernal machine. >The most important technological advance after the invention of >computers, I believe, was timesharing, which made interactive >computing feasible for the first time. The basic principles of This is important. It doesn't seem that the significance of timesharing to make interactive computing possible, and then networking of remote computers possible is adequately understood or recognized. Quite right. The PR machines of certain companies have succeeded in hoodwinking the media and the historians seem to have accepted their accounts uncritically so far. >timesharing were first stated by Prof. John McCarthy in an MIT memo >dated January 1, 1959, which led to the establishment of Project Mac. >McCarthy's interest in this scheme was motivated by his desire for >economical intereactive computing in support of his research in >artificial intelligence and was substantially influenced by the >example of SAGE, which was a special-purpose timesharing system. > Interesting. It also seemed that getting support for timesharing at MIT originally involved a struggle that McCarthy bravely took up. Not much of a struggle, I believe -- as far as I know his colleagues acknowleged that he was right as soon as they saw his ideas. >The first two demonstration timesharing systems were created by Prof. >Fernando Corbato at MIT and by John McCarthy and Ed Fredkin at BBN, >both in the summer of 1962. McCarthy was invited to head Project MAC >but chose instead to move to Stanford, so MAC was headed by Prof. >Fano. > Do you know why McCarthy chose to move to Stanford? He had pioneered the work that made timesharing work possible at MIT. I suspect that he preferred the California lifestyle and weather, as any sensible person would, but if you really want to know I suggest that you ask him: jmc@cs.stanford.edu. John continued working on timesharing at Stanford through the mid-1960s by developing the first display-oriented timesharing system, called Zeus. [. . .] As we know, timesharing became a very >successful multi-billion dollar industry (in spite of the fact that >IBM never figured out how to do it) and made possible a number of >later developments, one of which was ARPAnet and another was practical >display-oriented interactive computing. Any idea why IBM had such a hard time trying to do time sharing? There are many possible answers to that question but one of them is given in a book by the person who was responsible for IBM's timesharing software development project: Frederick P. Brooks, Jr., "The Mythical Man-month," Addison-Wesley, 1975. Also, didn't the vision of a time sharing public computer utility or of an intellectual public utility grow out of the time sharing work. Certainly. There were a number of companies, such as Tymshare, that made a success of raw, seething timesharing in the 1970s. A number of current Internet service providers are still in that business. >Larry Roberts came to ARPA with the idea of developing ARPAnet and was >the true father of that project. Both Taylor and Licklider recognized But even Larry gives credit to Lick as helping him to recognize the importance of the computer networking issues. Roberts writes that after speaking with Licklider, Corbato, and Perlis in Nov. 1964, he "concluded that the most important problem in the computer field before us at the time was computer networking" and that "That was a topic in wihch Licklider was very interested and his enthusiasm infected me." [. . .] Fair enough -- I had moved to the Washington DC area in 1963-65 and so was not talking to Larry very often in that period. I recall that he gave us a demonstration of the computer link from MIT to SDC in the summer of 1966. I was not aware of Lick's earlier influence on this project but am not surprised. Incidentally, I believe that Larry Roberts also contributed the development of crytographically secure television by the U.S. Defense Department in the 1960s. He had done a Masters thesis at MIT around 1962 on a scheme for avoiding quantization contours in digitized images that was based on dithering the low order bit in a coherent way using a pseudo-random number generator. After reading about that idea it occurred to me that it was a perfect match for the secure television system that the Defense Department was then developing, given that the key generators they were planning to use to encrypt the digitized image could also be used to dither the low order bits. Sometime around 1962-63 I arranged for a meeting in Washington between Larry, me and some people who were doing that work. They said "Very interesting!" but were noncomittal about whether they were going to use it. I'm pretty sure that they did, but in traditional "spook" fashion they never acknowledged using this innovation. -Les Earnest ______________________________________________________________________ Posted by David S. Bennahum (davidsol@panix.com) Moderator: Community Memory http://www.reach.com/matrix/community-memory.html A CPSR Project -- http://www.cpsr.org -- cpsr@cpsr.org Materials may be reposted in their *entirety* for non-commercial use. Want to receive the day's postings bundled together into one message? It's easy. Send a note to listserv@cpsr.org that reads: SET CPSR-HISTORY MAIL DIGEST ______________________________________________________________________