Article: 7487 of comp.sys.newton.programmer Path: samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.pbi.net!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!uninett.no!news.uni-c.dk!news.uni-c.dk!bondo From: bondo@inet.uni-c.dk (Joachim Bondo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer Subject: Re: How to get C/C++ tools from Apple? Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:55:47 +0200 Organization: News Server at UNI-C, Danish Computing Centre for Research and Education. Lines: 65 Message-ID: <1997051709554793263@lanrover1-8.rt-reklame.dk> References: <19970515100520192299@[130.227.185.98]> NNTP-Posting-Host: lanrover1-8.rt-reklame.dk X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 I e-mailed Apple with the request for a copy of the C++ tools and they replied the following: ========================== Dear Newton Developer Program member, We are pleased to announce that the Newton C++ Tools 1.0 are now available to members of the Newton Developer Program. (Newton C++ Tools are available for Mac OS only.) The Newton C++ Tools are intended for very specific engineering tasks. Most of the time, NewtonScript and Newton Toolkit (NTK) will be all that you need to create applications for the Newton platform. However, in a limited number of cases, you may want to repurpose some existing C++ code as an external routine for NTK. Developers should be aware that existing code may have to be reworked in order to deploy to the Newton OS. In addition, Newton C++ Tools have limited API access. Because of the limited use for Newton C++ Tools, we have decided to make this developer release available only to Newton Developer Program members. Technical support for Newton C++ Tools is covered under the technical support provisions of your membership in the Newton Developer Program and is considered code-level support. If you are a registered Newton Developer Program member and have registered your DevWorld ID and Password, go to the C++ Tools Page: http://devworld.apple.com/dev/newton/tools/ctoolsintro.html NOTE: You will be prompted for your DevWorld user ID and Password. If you have not yet registered for a DevWorld user ID and Password, you will need to register before you can access the C++ Tools. There is a link to "register now" on the C++ Tools Intro page. You will need your Customer Number (or Customer Service number) in order to register. If you do not know this information, you should contact your local Developer Support office. A list of worldwide Developer Support contacts can be found at http://www.devworld.apple.com/worldwide/wwcontacts.html Once you have registered your ID and Password, you will receive an email confirmation within a few days, at which time your ID and Password will be active and will allow you access to the Members Only areas (such as the C++ Tools). We wish you continued success in your projects, Newton Developer Information Group ========================== And since I'm already a member of the Newton Program, I'll just have to go get it. Thank you for that Apple, and thank you all other helpfull people. Joachim ______________________________________________________________________ Joachim Bondo e-mail: bondo@inet.uni-c.dk www: http://inet.uni-c.dk/home/bondo Article: 7442 of comp.sys.newton.programmer Path: samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.pbi.net!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu!not-for-mail From: potts@umich.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer Subject: Re: How to get C/C++ tools from Apple? Date: 15 May 97 15:55:16 -0500 Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <19970515100520192299@[130.227.185.98]> NNTP-Posting-Host: host-239.subnet-134.med.umich.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.itd.umich.edu X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.newton.programmer Because of the way these tools work, Apple has essentially "released" them - but only to members of the Newton developer programs such as Partner or Associate Plus. (Not sure about Associate). If you sign up for one of these programs you can get access to these tools on the net. I think this was the right decision - the tools aren't a shrink-wrapped, polished development environment like CodeWarrior, they are more of a serious hacker tool. Users will probably want tech support. Paul Article: 7555 of comp.sys.newton.programmer Path: samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.pbi.net!zdc!super.zippo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.highfiber.com!ip16.indirect.com!user From: dan@newts.com (Dan Rowley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer Subject: Re: How to get C/C++ tools from Apple? Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:32:13 -0700 Organization: Innovative Computer Solutions Lines: 102 Message-ID: References: <19970515100520192299@[130.227.185.98]> <19970517032945855082@dialin130.rz.uni-frankfurt.de> <19970519155601141257@dialin125.rz.uni-frankfurt.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip16.indirect.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 In article <19970519155601141257@dialin125.rz.uni-frankfurt.de>, griesbec@stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Christian Griesbeck) wrote: >I wrote: >> >I think this is the wrong decision - *Apple should make the tools >> >public beta* > >Brant Sears wrote: >> I disagree. Very few developers will need to use the C tools. > >Yes and that "very few developers" are not necessary in the Apple >developers program, that's why they should be publicly available. >If Apple can't get the tools to a state where they are for sale >they should be released free "on your own risk". > It's very easy to say this, but less easy for Apple to deal with the very real possibility that developers who *don't* know what they are doing will seriously mess up their Newtons and create a tech support nightmare.. This is not to say that developers who pay for support are necessarily better developers -- it's just that they have an easy avenue for support that Apple is well set-up to support (Lord knows I've exercised *my* right to email for support).. >> It is too easy to get yourself in trouble with them > >And those in the developer programs have necessary more knowledge? >What would have happened if Apple had that thoughts on the Apple II? >I am not a child, i don't need to be mothered by Apple. > I don't think anybody is implying that you don't know what you're doing. I also don't think there's a C programmer out there who hasn't had a pointer "duh" and written garbage where they didn't mean to.. To paraphrase David Fedor at Apple (sorry David) "If your bad pointer hits exactly the wrong spots, you can put some devices in a condition which not even a cold reboot will fix - it'll continuously plead to be returned to the factory for repairs. No kidding." I'll tell you, I'm a pretty good C programmer, but I'm taking this warning pretty seriously. Back in the Apple ][ days, there was nothing you could do that turning the machine off and on wouldn't fix - the ROM was inviolate. On the Newton it really *is* possible to toast the thing beyond all hope and have to send it in. I think what Apple is trying to do is stem the tide of people who refuse to learn NewtonScript and think they can develop a whole application in C by limiting access to the tools to people who demonstrate that they are serious (by having a support contract) and have access to tech support - Apple can't afford to support every C programmer who decides he wants to write the next VisiCalc for the Newton. Even Microsoft charges for development tools and development tech support. The fact is that no matter what you do, you will HAVE to do some NewtonScript. The more you try to avoid it, the more work you make for yourself in C trying to get to the NewtonScript data structures and view system. You'll spend half your time calling back to NewtonScript or trying to decode dynamic NewtonScript structures, promptly obliterating any performance benefit you thought you had. >> Use a native function written with NTK if you need to. > >The benefit of the native function is quite limited. And again >why wasting developer time to reinvent the wheel and transferring >everything to Newton Script. > I'm all for reusing C algorithms rather than porting them, and that's exactly what the C tools are for. What most people seem to be missing is that you really CAN'T do a whole Newton application in C. What it's good for is pure algorithmic stuff, where you don't need access to the user or to the view system. > >> If you are doing something that needs the C tools , >> then you should be in the developers program anyway. > >If I need support, I'll buy it. >If I need a C-Compiler, I'll buy it. >But I don't want to buy support if I only need a C-Compiler. > If it bothers you to think you have to buy support to get the C tools, just think of it as $500 for tech support with a "free copy of the C++ tools if you act now!" What a deal! ;) >That's what Bill is thinking of Apple too. And that's what will make >me finally buy a Computer that runs Bill's software on it. >I waited a long time for Apple, and i wasted some money in Apple >products (e.g. is spend about 1100 USD (in Germany) for NTK 1.0 three >weeks before Apple lowered the price). Hey, you're not the only one who jumped on early. I bought the beta NTK for something like $800 and a pair of MP Classics to go with it - no small investment for what was, at the time, a part-time venture. I also bought into a full-boat support contract, and I haven't regretted a cent of it. I realized a long time ago that my time is money, and it really is cheaper for me to pay Apple $1500 a year so I can ask questions and get answers, instead of beating my head against the wall for hours with no guarantees of an answer.. The DTS guys at Apple are a really fine bunch, and I'm happy to pay them to help me keep my sanity. Dan -- Dan Rowley Innovative Computer Solutions Developers of fine software for Newton, Windows/CE, and Be.