ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 1703 http://www.s-gabriel.org/1703 ************************************ 28 Jun 1999 From: (Josh Mittleman) Greetings from the Academy of Saint Gabriel! You asked our opinion of your heraldic design "Azure fretty Or, on a pile inverted Or, a thistle proper". Here is what we have found. Unfortunately, we do not believe that this design is plausible for any part of our scope. The thistle, fretty, and the pile inverted were all fairly unusual charges, and thus the combination of the three is very unlikely. We recommend that you simplify your design and stick to more common elements. You mentioned that you were most interested in Italian, Spanish, and late-period English cultures. You can get a good idea of what sorts of designs are appropriate in England by looking at Joseph Foster's _The Dictionary of Heraldry_ (New York: Arch Cape Press, 1989). It contains several thousand color drawings of arms that appeared in late medieval English rolls of arms. As you'll see, "fretty" was not uncommon in English heraldry, so if you particular like that element, you may want to design arms that re-create English heraldic style. A couple possibilities you could consider are: Azure fretty and on a chief Or three thistles proper. Azure, three thistles and a chief Or fretty azure. Both designs are typical of English heraldic style from the 14th century on. As far as we can tell, you could register either in the SCA. We have seen examples of thistles in an early 16th century Portuguese roll of arms, in the arms of the family Cardoso [1]. There are Spanish families and whose arms also contains thistles at least in modern times and possibly in late-period as well [4]. is the word for "thistle" in Spanish and in Italian, so these families clearly used the thistle for canting, i.e. because the name of the charge was similar to their family names. If you want arms typical of late-period Iberian heraldry, then the thistle is a reasonable choice, especially if you choose a Spanish or Portuguese surname that sounds like . Some possibilities are [3]: Juan de Cardo (1537) Esteban Cardona (1535) Gonzalo Cardoso (1535) Rodrigo de Cardona (1554) Isabel de Cardosa (1558) Margarita de Cardoso (1557) , , and are place names. might have meant "place where there are big thistles"; the other two could mean "place full of thistles". If you're interested in this possibility, we can suggest some typically Iberian designs for arms using thistles. One possibility that would be an excellent choice for a Spanish or Portuguese persona is "Azure, five thistles two, one, and two Or." As far as we can tell, you could register this design, too. We haven't seen thistles in Italian period arms, but we have seen lots of other plants, so the thistle is at least possible. If you want an Italian name and arms and you want to use a thistle, you might once again consider a name that gives you a cant. Some possibilities are , , , , , , , , and . Only the last of these is derived from the Italian word for "thistle" (the first two, for example, mean "dormouse"), but any of them could have led to a cant with a thistle [2]. If you'd like to pursue this possibility, we can suggest some typically Italian designs for your arms. Here's one that might appeal to you: Azure, a thistle standing on a triple mount Or. A triple mount is a common heraldic charge, a highly stylized rendition of a hill. It consists of three mounds, one stacked atop the other two, each shaped like half a capsule. The thistle sprouts out of the upper peak. We hope this letter has been useful. Please write us again if any part of it has been unclear or if you have other questions. I was assisted in researching and writing this letter by Zenobia Naphtali, Talan Gwynek, Walraven van Nijmegen, and Juliana de Luna. For the Academy, Arval Benicoeur 28 Jun 1999 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - References [1] Godinho, Anto/nio, 1517-1541, _Livro da Nobreza e Perfeicam das Armas_, Introduction, Notes, Artistic and Graphic Guidance by Martim de Albuquerque and Joa~o Paulo de Abreu e Lima (Lisbon: Academia Portuguesa da Histo'ria, 1987). Cardoso: Gules, two thistles in pale vert supported by two lions combattant Or. [2] Fucilla, Joseph G., _Our Italian Surnames_ (Evanston, IL: Chandlers' Inc., 1949). [3] Romera Iruela, Luis, and Ma. del Carmen Galbis Di/ez, _Catalogo de Pasajeros a Indias, Siglos XVI, XVII, y XVIII_ (Sevilla: Archivo General de Indias, 1980), volumes II and III. [4] De Atienza, Julio, _Nobilario Espan~ol_ (Madrid: Aguilar SA de Ediciones, 1954). Cardona: Gules, three thistles Or. Cardoso: Or, a thistle vert within a bordure gules charge with eight saltires couped Or. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Corrected, 26 Dec 2001, Arval: Fixed a typo in note [4].