This post announces the availability of more materials in my history of
newsgroup creation in the "official" newsgroups, and also provides
pointers to some scattered materials relevant to this subject that have
been posted to news.groups in the past year and a half.
In December, 2001, various archives of Usenet posts dating between 1980
and 1995 were made available by Google () in
addition to the posts from 1995 onward to which Google already offered
access. My own interest in the history of Usenet had been frustrated
for years by lack of evidence of this sort, and I almost immediately
began to work with the newly accessible materials. Most of what I
posted in the first month or so is rich in errors and is essentially
superseded by later posts, but in mid-January, 2002, I began the thread
this post is in, and created an archive at my website. The new
materials I'm now making available are both at the website, and
posted to this thread, in news.groups alone.
The core contents of the thread are accounts of newsgroup creation in a
limited set of hierarchies, as observed from a limited range of evidence
(quasi-"official" lists of newsgroups), and as organised in two ways:
there are year-summaries, which proceed chronologically list by list,
and there are hierarchy-summaries, which proceed alphabetically group by
group. What I posted in January, 2002 was the year-summaries for 1981
through 1986, plus the hierarchy summaries for NET.*, net.*, fa.*, and
mod.*. What I can now make available as well are the year-summaries for
1987 through 1993, along with an incomplete draft of the one for 1994.
There have been various additional posts, by me and others, that have
filled in and in many cases corrected the picture presented by my
summaries. Following my name in this post you will find an index by
year, by hierarchy, by topic, and by periodic posting, trying to sort
this material out, and a list of the posts in question with URLs at
Google and at my archive.
My work on this project is chronological, which is to say that the
year-summaries are what I do first. I intended to post no more
materials until I had reached at least the end of 1994, if not the
present, basically because hierarchy-summaries are best done only when a
particular hierarchy's history is fully covered, and I found in the
first stage of the project that doing a hierarchy-summary often
uncovered errors I had made in the year-summaries.
However, as a result of recent events in my life, discussed elsewhere on
news.groups, I consider myself obligated to make available what I can,
sooner than my plans had called for me to do. For information about
those developments, my request for donations to help me deal with them,
and the implications for this project, please see a post following up
to this one which I will post to news.groups only.
The index follows. In essence, I don't consider that anything yet
written on the significant questions in this aspect of Usenet's history
is the last word; the index is an attempt to show what you need in order
to approach a particular subject, beyond the obvious post(s).
The website has recently moved. If you have any address involving
postilion.org, please replace it with
. Please also
note that this URL is not likely to be permanent, and keep an eye
open for further developments.
Joe Bernstein
INDEX By topic, by hierarchy, by year, and by periodic posting. I
have resisted by main force the temptation to try to index by
personal and group name at this time. This does mean that some
relatively substantial or interesting items - the manifestoes of
successive news.announce.newgroups moderators, for example - are
not indexed.
BY TOPIC
I have written an elementary discussion of Usenet's history as seen from
the vantage point of newsgroup creation, which is post A in the list
below; it's essentially a synthesis of my year-summaries through 1986
with what I then knew of the following years, and various other matters.
I got some stuff unequivocally wrong, and post B is my corrections. Jim
Riley, in post C and related discussion, strongly disagrees with some of
my interpretations of events particularly 1984-1987, citing numerous
posts from net.news.group (a body of evidence I haven't used much); I
haven't had time yet to do the kind of research that would be required
to settle the matter, nor have I seen him provide definitive proof, but
at this point the balance of evidence is certainly on his side.
Post D, by me, offers a substantial chunk of the available data on
newsgroup creation in 1981 and 1982, with minimal synthesis. (This is
the only post, except the fa.* hierarchy-summary, post L, for which I've
so far made substantial use of posts to net.news.group.) Post C, by Jim
Riley, provides references to, and quotes or summarises, numerous posts,
primarily from 1985 and mostly from net.news.group; his specific concern
is the evolution of the vote, but the discussion is wider than that; the
related discussion is also worth consulting for some of his
interpretations and, for what it's worth, also of mine. Post E, by me,
is an account of changes in the posted Guidelines from 1987 to 2002.
In a post cited under post C below, Jim Riley deals with STV voting
circa 1990; in posts V through X, I note many examples of guidelines
violations and how they were dealt with. Post F, by Russ Allbery, is
an authoritative account of changes in the Guidelines 1998-2002 by the
person who revised them in 1998 and has maintained them since.
I reposted some early lists of newsgroups, and the oldest surviving
Usenet posts known to me, in post G.
In the early years of Usenet, there was a relatively tight relationship
between Usenet and the ARPAnet mailing lists. Keith Lynch and I
discussed various lists and this relationship in general, with
particular attention to surviving archives of the lists other than the
Usenet archives, in thread H. Usenet-ARPAnet relations are also a major
topic of the fa.* hierarchy-summary, post L. For later Usenet-mailing
list relations, see also the discussions of the inet distribution in the
year-summary for 1987, post T. (Subsequent discussions of inet are
relatively uninformative on this subject; but see also the year-summary
for 1993, post Z, which introduces a periodic posting you will probably
want to consult, and that for 1994, post AA, which deals with a
different aspect of Usenet-Internet relations.)
I don't really deal in detail with the Backbone Cabal, but for what
I do discuss see primarily the year-summaries for 1985 through
1988, posts R through U. It's also worth seeing the posts that deal
with the rules over those years - for example, my post A and Jim
Riley's post C.
The Great Renaming of net.* and mod.* into the Big 7 is covered in
the year-summaries for 1986 (net.*, post S) and 1987 (mod.*, post
T) and in the hierarchy-summaries for net.* (post K) and mod.* (post
M); the latter are where you'll find the names particular groups
were renamed to. Additional resources for which groups went where
are at my website:
.
I detail the oldest attested single-group FAQs or posting guidelines
in the year-summaries for 1986 through 1989, posts S through V; my
criteria for which posts to list are in post S, while post V notes
a periodic posting that covers the topic for subsequent years.
In post I, I offer very preliminary information about the evolution of
the "charter"; a little more such information is available in the
year-summary for 1990, post W.
The year-summaries for 1989 through 1991, posts V through X, summarise a
reading of the surviving posts to news.announce.newgroups for the period
before David Lawrence took over as moderator. See also post B for the
voted charter of news.announce.newgroups.
I offer minimal discussion of commercialism in Usenet in the year-
summary for 1989, post V; I meant to offer more in that for 1994,
post AA, but forgot.
The early re-orgs are presented in the year-summaries for 1989 through
1994, posts V through AA, with particularly extensive discussion in
posts W and X. Although these years were the height of .miscification,
I can't honestly say that there's much explicitly on that topic in the
posts; what there is is in post W. But the names of the groups added
in those years do provide some evidence.
There is an example of dead group removal in 1991, discussed in the
year-summary, post X, with what little information I can provide.
The year-summary for 1993, post Z, deals with three major events of
1993: the retirement of Gene Spafford, the rise of the Usenet Volunteer
Votetakers, and the beginning of the long September, which is also dealt
with in the draft year-summary for 1994, post AA. Posts Z and AA also
cover a difficult to understand series of changes in how David
Lawrence listed alt.* groups.
Finally, post BB is the post at the head of this thread, in which I
provide pointers to the guides to Usenet's history *older* than January,
2002. Note that one URL given in that post is now defunct; for current
sources for the Great Renaming FAQ, version 2, see my post CC. Google's
announcement of the archive, with its details on the different sources
thereof, is post DD.
BY HIERARCHY
Post BB discusses my main methods in compiling posts J through AA, the
hierarchy- and year-summaries, so if you rely to any significant extent
on the hierarchy-summaries (or on post D, which is basically derived
from them), you should read the relevant parts of post BB. Similarly
post DD is a good thing for anyone using the Google archives to read.
For NET.*, the hierarchy-summary, post J, is still probably what you
need to read first, but this is unfortunate, because I fundamentally
misunderstood the NET.* to net.* transition when I wrote it. Posts A
and especially D offer what I've written to date correcting this
mistake. See also the year-summary, post N, but with the same warning
about my misunderstanding.
For net.*, the hierarchy-summary, post K, is also obviously wrongheaded
about the hierarchy's start, and again post D offers more reliable and
more complete information (organised chronologically rather than
alphabetically, and with a table of contents). But for events after
1983, you're stuck with the hierarchy-summary, and, for a very different
take, some of what Jim Riley says in post C and related posts. The
relevant year-summaries are posts N through S or arguably T. Besides
the remarks about the "Usenet II" version of net.* in the hierarchy-
summary, there's also a tidbit about it towards the end of the year-
summary for 1989, post V.
For fa.*, the hierarchy-summary, post L, is relatively clueful, and much
more complete than the other hierarchy-summaries, but you should still
look at thread H. Post D is *not* relevant to fa.* at all. The
relevant year-summaries are posts N through R.
For mod.*, see the hierarchy-summary, post M. Some of Jim Riley's
remarks in or near post C are also relevant. The relevant
year-summaries are posts Q through T.
For the Big 8 hierarchies, I've done no hierarchy-summaries yet, as
discussed above. Their history is, of course, the main topic of posts E
and F, and prominent also in posts A and B; and some of the data for
that history can be found in the year-summaries for 1986 through 1994,
posts S through AA.
For the inet groups, there is an extensive discussion in the
year-summary for 1987, post T, and the distribution's minimal growth is
of course traced in the subsequent year-summaries, posts U through AA.
Among several places where I've opined at length about what the inet
phenomenon means, perhaps the least one-sided is the post with which I
opened the discussion that culminated in Jim Riley's post C (post C
itself has relatively little about inet). For a pointer to a
statement of intent by Erik Fair quite different from the original
1987 one, see the year-summary for 1990, post W; for a pointer to the
most extensive discussion of inet known to me, see that for 1992,
post Y.
The trial.* hierarchy is covered as fully as I could in the year-
summaries for 1990 through 1993, posts W through Z. I thought I had
seen a substantial discussion of its history based on the materials
Google made available in 2001, but I cannot now find that discussion,
so as far as I know, those posts now contain the most complete
publicly available treatment of the hierarchy.
In general, I've done little with alt.*, but the year-summaries for
1987 onward, posts T through AA, do point to some of the "Alternative
Newsgroup Hierarchies" posts that list alt.* groups, note how many
groups were listed there at each year's end, and mention for each list
posting date those alt.* groups listed for the first time that I find
noteworthy from a newsgroup-creation or Usenet-historical perspective.
Those for 1991 onward, posts X through AA, also point to additional
lists of alt.* groups by an all-newgroup no-rmgroup alt.* completist,
Bruce Becker, and make feeble attempts to explain the increasingly
strange handling of the lists in the "Alternative Newsgroup
Hierarchies" posts.
Although I note in each year-summary, posts T through Z, how many groups
were listed for each hierarchy covered by "Alternative Newsgroup
Hierarchies" as of the last such post in the year, I have made no other
efforts to track hierarchies not mentioned above. Sorry, but I don't
even have useful suggestions as to how to do so.
BY YEAR
Post A, for what it's worth, is globally relevant.
Post BB discusses my main methods in compiling posts J through AA, the
hierarchy- and year-summaries, so if you rely to any significant extent
on the year-summaries (or on post D, which is basically derived from the
hierarchy-summaries), you should read the relevant parts of post BB.
Again, post DD is similarly globally relevant to users of the Google
archives for research.
For 1980, see the year-summary, post N; the NET.* hierarchy-summary,
post J; and the somewhat less misguided relevant material in the opening
parts of post D. Post G contains much of the surviving raw materials.
Thread H offers crucial information.
For 1981, posts N, J, D, and G, and thread H, are again relevant; so now
are the hierarchy-summaries for fa.*, post L, and net.*, post K (again,
correcting the latter by reference to post D).
For 1982, see the year-summary, post O; the hierarchy-summaries posts L
and K (supplemented by post D, which also makes it easier to isolate the
1982 material; but my treatment of 1982 events initially was anyway not
as wrongheaded as my treatment of earlier stuff).
For 1983, see the year-summary, post P and the hierarchy-summaries posts
L and K; this is also where Jim Riley's post C begins to matter.
For 1984, see the year-summary, post Q, the hierarchy-summaries posts L,
K, and now, for mod.*, M, and again Jim Riley's post C.
For 1985, see the year-summary, post R, and the hierarchy-summaries
posts L, K, and M. This is the year for which post C offers the most
material, by far.
For 1986, see the year-summary, post S, and the hierarchy-summaries
posts K and M, as well as post C; post I touches on this year.
For 1987, see the year-summary, post T, the hierarchy-summary post M
(post K contains minimal information on 1987 events as well), and again
also posts C (finishing up) and I (this is the year for which post I is
most useful). The written Guidelines appeared in November 1987; on
these see post E.
For 1988, see the year-summary, post U, and again posts E and I.
For 1989, see the year-summary, post V, and also posts E and B.
For 1990, see the year-summary, post W, and also post E.
For 1991, see the year-summary, post X, and also post E.
For 1992, see the year-summary, post Y.
For 1993, see the year-summary, post Z, and also post E.
For 1994, see the draft year-summary, post AA.
Only posts E and F, of the posts here indexed, relate meaningfully to
any years later than 1994.
BY PERIODIC POSTING
The grouplist posted by Curt Stephens is a major source for the year-
summary for 1982, post O, and I give full details on each posting
known to me.
The List of Active Newsgroups posted by Adam Buchsbaum, Gene Spafford
and David Lawrence is my core source for the year-summaries for 1982
onward, posts O through AA, and I give full details on each posting
known to me.
The List of Moderators posted by Gene Spafford and David Lawrence
appears in 1984 and is a source for each year-summary thereafter,
posts Q through AA, and I give full details on each posting known
to me.
The Checkgroups Messages posted by Gene Spafford and David Lawrence
first appeared in 1984, and are occasionally a source in the
subsequent year-summaries, posts Q through AA.
The Changes postings, diffs between older and newer versions of Gene
Spafford's periodic postings, first appeared no later than 1985. I
didn't use them consistently for most years, but discussed them in
the 1985 and 1988 year-summaries, posts R and U, and did use them
to a considerable extent in the 1993 and 1994 ones, posts Z and AA.
The Alternative Newsgroup Hierarchies postings by Gene Spafford and
David Lawrence appeared in 1987, but did not become a core source for
my work until 1988; I give full details on each posting known to me
for that date onward, in the relevant year-summaries, posts U through
AA, but only message-IDs for previous postings, in posts T and U.
The 1987 posts, unlike the later years', are at my website, so
there is only a short gap between the posts I detail fully and those
I've already collected for you.
The Guidelines postings by Gene Spafford, by Greg Woods (maintained
by Gene Spafford, Eliot Lear, and David Lawrence), and by Russ
Allbery, are the focus of post E, and for Russ Allbery's also post
F; they are only occasionally treated in the year-summaries for
the relevant years, 1987 through 1994, posts T through AA.
The Checkgroups Messages (with INET groups) posted by Gene Spafford
are a core source for my work on a part of 1988, the year they
first appeared, and used rarely thereafter; the year-summary is
post U. I have not used the ones posted by David Lawrence and
have not detailed them.
The List of Periodic Informational Postings posted by Rich Kulawiec
and later the moderators of news.answers appeared in 1989. I do not
provide details at all, just hand off to it; for what I do say see
the year-summaries for 1989 and 1990, posts V and W.
The Current Status of Votes on Newsgroups postings and their
descendants and precursors, by Eliot Lear and David Lawrence,
appeared in 1990, and are discussed on occasion, but not detailed,
in the year-summaries for that year onward, posts W through AA.
The Regional Newsgroup Hierarchies postings by Andrew Partan
appeared in 1990 and 1991, and then (unrevised) in 1992; I only
provide a message-ID for the first, but do provide the ending
dates as well.
The postings reporting on newly created groups, which had various
names, by Eliot Lear and David Lawrence, appeared at the end of
1990, and are mentioned on occason in the successive year-
summaries, posts W through AA. Those postings' brief attempt in
1992 to cover regional hierarchies is discussed in the year-
summaries for 1992 and 1993, posts Y and Z.
Bruce Becker's lists of alt.* groups, which had various names
but most often 'Another listing of newsgroups in the "alt"
hierarchy', first appeared in 1991; I provide dates and subject
lines for each through the last Alternative Newsgroup Hierarchies
of 1994 (early October), in the year-summaries, posts X through AA,
but don't use them as a core source or indeed as much of a source.
The Bogus USENET Groups postings by David Lawrence first appeared
in 1992, and are briefly mentioned in the year-summary for that
year, post Y, but what few details I offer are in the year-summary
for 1993, post Z.
David Lawrence's Mailing Lists Available in Usenet post first
appeared in 1993, and is treated as a core source for which I
give full details in the year-summaries for 1993 and 1994, posts
Z and AA. (In reality, however, at this time my work with it
has covered only the first posting; I handled the rest with
Changes posts instead.)
Bruce Becker's A listing of Canadian regional and university
newsgroups first appeared in late 1993 and is briefly mentioned
in the year-summary for 1994, post AA.
THE POSTS (AND THREAD)
By me unless otherwise noted. I include complete URLs, despite their
repetitiveness and length, mainly to make web or web-compatible versions
of this post easy to use point-and-click. (I am, after all, likely
enough to use it myself that way.)
A ("How tale got where he is", early October, 2002)
Message-ID: <3da105bd$0$187$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
I strongly urge any user of this post also to see post B, and to the
extent that you rely on it for the period 1984-1987 you should also see
post C and the ensuing discussion.
B (the early history of news.announce.newgroups, early October, 2002)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
Since I recommend post A to everyone, and this post to everyone who
reads post A, this post is basically also recommended to everyone. But
if this topic is actually your focus, see also posts V, W, and X.
C (Jim Riley on the history of voting and related matters, mid-October, 2002)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
While this post by Jim Riley is by far the richest post in this
discussion, it would probably be helpful to see the context. I think
the historical discussion basically begins with (1) a post of mine, to
which (2) Jim Riley replied; (3) I answered; (4) post C is his further
reply, and (5) and (6) we went back and forth again. Basically, to see
all this, go to Google and do the "see this message in context" thing.
Post T provides much of the background to my side of the discussion.
Jim Riley has at least twice before covered similar material, in
posts I chose not to index here. See Message-IDs
and
. In the same thread as the
latter, his message-ID includes
a preliminary account of STV votes in news.announce.newgroups.
D ("Some 1981 and 1982 Newsgroup Creations", mid-February, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c6fc9b8$0$1347$892e7fe2@authen.blue.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
This is basically a corrective to, and expansion of, posts N, J, and K;
if you can't understand it, you should probably read those posts, but
wherever this one contradicts them, you should trust it over them.
E ("The Guidelines: a preliminary revision history", mid-February, 2002)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
For the prehistory of this subject see post C; for more details on
1998-2002 see post F; and for detailed discussion of how this document
related to reality in 1989-1991, see posts V, W, and X.
F (Russ Allbery on the Guidelines 1998-2002, mid-February, 2002)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
This expands on post E for the period 1998 to 2002.
G ("Early lists of newsgroups", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a57cc$0$38167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
This provides actual copies of much of the evidence used in posts N and
J, and is therefore also relevant to post D and, minimally, thread H.
H (Keith Lynch and me on "Early mailing lists", late January and early February, 2002)
Here, I'm referring you to a group of six posts, of which the first,
third, and fifth were by Keith Lynch, and the other three by me.
Message-IDs:
<3c586095$0$26394$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
<3c6181a9$0$67476$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
The background will be found in posts J and L.
I (the early history of charters, mid-May, 2003)
Message-ID: <3ecdc4a3$0$211$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
Post W carries the story forward somewhat; unfortunately, neither post C
nor posts S through U are much use on this topic.
J ("The NET.* Hierarchy in Lists of Newsgroups and Other Sources", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a4288$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
It's really important for any user of this post to see also (if not
instead) post D, and probably helpful to see thread H as well.
K ("The net.* Hierarchy in Lists of Newsgroups", mid-January, 2002)
Message-IDs: <3c4a468b$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
<3c4a4754$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
Users concerned with the period through 1982 should see also, or
preferably instead, post D. Post C offers a very different take on
subsequent times.
L ("The fa.* Hierarchy in Lists of Newsgroups and the Google Archives", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a47dc$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
You are strongly encouraged to consult also thread H.
M ("The mod.* Hierarchy in Lists of Active Newsgroups and of Moderators", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a49f4$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
Post C is somewhat relevant here.
N ("1980 and 1981 in Lists of Newsgroups and Other Sources", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a40c1$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
I strongly recommend consulting post D too, or instead. Thread H also
relates.
O ("1982 in Lists of Newsgroups", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a43bb$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
Post D expands on this.
P ("1983 in Lists of Newsgroups", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a485f$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
Q ("1984 in Lists of Active Newsgroups and of Moderators", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a4948$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
R ("1985 in Lists of Active Newsgroups and of Moderators", mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a4abe$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
You should really see post C in relation to this post.
S ("1986 in Lists of Newsgroups", mid-January, 2002, revised early November,
2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
T ("1987 in Lists of Big 7 and inet Newsgroups", early October, 2002 to
early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bo18g1%24h65%241%40reader2.panix.com>
My site:
U ("1988 in Lists of Big 7 and inet Newsgroups", early October, 2002 to
early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
V ("1989 in Lists of Big 7 and inet Newsgroups", mid-May to early
November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
W ("1990 in Lists of Big 7, inet, and trial.* Newsgroups", mid-May and
late August to early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
X ("1991 in Lists of Big 7, trial.*, and inet Newsgroups", late August
to early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
Y ("1992 in Lists of Big 7, trial.*, and inet Newsgroups", mid-September
to early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
Z ("1993 in Lists of Big 7, trial.*, and inet Newsgroups", mid-October
to early November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
Please note that if I am ever again able to carry this project
forward, I may replace this page on my website and supersede this post.
AA ("1994 in Lists of Big 7 and inet Newsgroups", mid-October to early
November, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
My site:
Please be aware that if I am ever again able to carry this project
forward, I will replace this page on my website and supersede this post.
BB (on sources and methods for posts J through AA, mid-January, 2002)
Message-ID: <3c4a3cbf$0$95686$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>
Google:
My site:
CC ("Great Renaming FAQ version 2", late August, 2003)
Message-ID:
Google:
Not at my site, but I've requested the permission of the FAQ's author,
Lee Bumgarner, to make this version available there; if he agrees,
it will be at
.
DD ("Google Groups Archive Information", mid-December, 2001)
Message-ID: <90cbefb1.0112211728.4cfe9bb@posting.google.com>
Google:
I've requested Google's permission to make this available at my site;
if they agree, it will be at
.
(Alternative message-ID: <90cbefb1.0112211746.43392bc8@posting.google.com>
with predictable effect on Google URL. This is the posting to news.*
and alt.fan.dejanews; the one cited above is the posting to
google.public.support.general.)